Overhauling of the NCHSAA by the NC House

[ocdavis31]

Saw Jason Sain last talking about how the more choices parents have, the more it will force all schools to be competitive and will improve them all.
Okay, Jason, if you want competition, level the playing field. Make all schools (traditional publics, charter, private, parochial) play by the same rules. When you don’t have to take all students, have certified teachers, provide lunch or transportation and can set your own curriculum locally, of course you have an advantage. Go back to the original concept you sold the voters….charters are an incubator for best practices to be shared with all schools

 

[crestcharger02]

Public schools that make people money, can kick kids out over academics, probably bend the rules to get certain kids in, play by a different set of rules, and lack accountability.

Sounds great doesn't it?

Sounds like a gripe list of nonsensical complaints with little accuracy.

 

[crestcharger02]

Saw Jason Sain last talking about how the more choices parents have, the more it will force all schools to be competitive and will improve them all.
Okay, Jason, if you want competition, level the playing field. Make all schools (traditional publics, charter, private, parochial) play by the same rules. When you don’t have to take all students, have certified teachers, provide lunch or transportation and can set your own curriculum locally, of course you have an advantage. Go back to the original concept you sold the voters….charters are an incubator for best practices to be shared with all schools

You can't force private schools to do that, so drop that nonsense. The reason alternatives to traditional publics rose up is by parents and students wanting something different. Forcing them all back on that same top down one size fits all model is counter productive.

 

[btango]

You can't force private schools to do that, so drop that nonsense. The reason alternatives to traditional publics rose up is by parents and students wanting something different. Forcing them all back on that same top down one size fits all model is counter productive.

Charter schools were to be a small group of schools that would be a niche such as Graystone Day School in Stanly County. The idea with the founders was to better prepare the best students for high academic colleges. It still caters there but a lot of students struggle mightily there. Stanly County would have been better off having strong academics at all of their high schools (four which may should be less) as we now see a vacuum.

I like the idea of charter schools but they have been given a a lot of options that allow them to be more successful with nowhere near the oversight or bureaucracy while the district schools struggle more than ever before.

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

Sounds like a gripe list of nonsensical complaints with little accuracy.

Nonsensical? So you've drank the Kool-Aid is what you are telling me?

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

You can't force private schools to do that, so drop that nonsense. The reason alternatives to traditional publics rose up is by parents and students wanting something different. Forcing them all back on that same top down one size fits all model is counter productive.

Why can't they? If private schools are going to recieve public funds, they should be required to meet certain criteria.

 

[crestcharger02]

Charter schools were to be a small group of schools that would be a niche such as Graystone Day School in Stanly County. The idea with the founders was to better prepare the best students for high academic colleges. It still caters there but a lot of students struggle mightily there. Stanly County would have been better off having strong academics at all of their high schools (four which may should be less) as we now see a vacuum.

I like the idea of charter schools but they have been given a a lot of options that allow them to be more successful with nowhere near the oversight or bureaucracy while the district schools struggle more than ever before.

The idea should be educating students to the fullest, not making the surrounding schools look better by spreading the academic talent around. Those schools not having the bureaucracy of the surrounding traditional schools sounds like something those schools should work on. Not the other way around. The lack of oversight is a buzz phrase that gets thrown around by those that are threatened a different approach doesn't fall under their thumb.

 

[crestcharger02]

Nonsensical? So you've drank the Kool-Aid is what you are telling me?

I'm saying you lack the understanding of the subject matter or ability to separate facts from fairy tale to contribute to this discussion.

 

[RIDGERUNNER#1]

There are way to many charter schools and no private school should get a dime of public money

 

[Freshmanposter01]

There are way to many charter schools and no private school should get a dime of public money

Even if it's a percentage of a parent/s taxes? If I am sending my kid to a private school and want my education tax dollars following them, I dont see anything wrong with it. It actually saves NC money. NC was paying around 13k per student to public schools from taxes. I think the most NC pays toward private is close to 5k.

 

[btango]

The idea should be educating students to the fullest, not making the surrounding schools look better by spreading the academic talent around. Those schools not having the bureaucracy of the surrounding traditional schools sounds like something those schools should work on. Not the other way around. The lack of oversight is a buzz phrase that gets thrown around by those that are threatened a different approach doesn't fall under their thumb.

I can assure you the charter schools have a much looser administrative review. The local schools need to improve but they are not allowed to turn students away or pick and choose. A lot of differences that give the charter schools more automony. Speak to some educators that have worked in both systems and they can give you more indpeth info.

SC has opened three charter schools that are based on athletics. They are in urban areas and many of the smaller schools they compete against (1A-2A) are electing not to play them. Big controversy in SC currently in this topic.

 

[crestcharger02]

I can assure you the charter schools have a much looser administrative review. The local schools need to improve but they are not allowed to turn students away or pick and choose. A lot of differences that give the charter schools more automony. Speak to some educators that have worked in both systems and they can give you more indpeth info.

SC has opened three charter schools that are based on athletics. They are in urban areas and many of the smaller schools they compete against (1A-2A) are electing not to play them. Big controversy in SC currently in this topic.

Nor should they be able to turn people away. Schools can improve without eliminating the competition or denying students an opportunity for education that more fits their needs.

SC can address their own issues in regards to charters for athletics. It is irrelevant to me.

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

I'm saying you lack the understanding of the subject matter or ability to separate facts from fairy tale to contribute to this discussion.

Where would you like to start?

The fact they don't have to be responsive to the tax payer?

The fact they can be run by out of state and for profit entities?

The fact they aren't required by law to follow the school calendar laws?

The fact they don't have to follow school classroom size laws?

The fact only half the staff have to be licensed?

The fact there is no transparency in their budgeting?

The fact that corporations that help build charter schools are allowed a certain percentage of enrollment?

The fact they aren't required to provide free and reduced lunch?

The fact that every law being passed to handcuff traditonal public schools exempts charter schools including the Parents Bill of Rights?

What about those loose academic standards?

The fact that kids can be sent back to their home school if they don't meet the criteria set forth by the charter school.

Ask a principal how thick their policy manual is at a traditonal school compared to a charter.

Same claim, different schools, different rules

Don't tell me I lack an understanding. I'm way deeper involved in what is going on here than you realize.

Why should 1 public school be given a different set of rules than the next?

 

[Freshmanposter01]

I can assure you the charter schools have a much looser administrative review. The local schools need to improve but they are not allowed to turn students away or pick and choose. A lot of differences that give the charter schools more automony. Speak to some educators that have worked in both systems and they can give you more indpeth info.

SC has opened three charter schools that are based on athletics. They are in urban areas and many of the smaller schools they compete against (1A-2A) are electing not to play them. Big controversy in SC currently in this topic.

All Charters are definitely not created equally. I had mine at Pinnacle in Cleveland County after missing the lottery and got up out of there fast. From my experience there, it's who you know when it comes to teaching jobs at that school and had the blind leading the blind in some subjects.

Made the move to one of the SC charters you mention above. They had actual real teachers and it was night and day from Pinnacle academicly and of course sports. I know Legion asked to be placed in higher divisions but was only allowed up 1 classification. Ill admit that the school had a huge advantage but had to play where SC made them play. The other conference schools got together and made sure anyway they could get back at having to play Legion, they would. 1 conference game a little over a hour and 40 mins away, it was forcast 100% storms but still made the school come down there or forfeit. Get there, storms, have to make the drive back down there another day. Legion is in NC private school league with schools like Charlotte Christian now, because of how they where treated from public schools and the state.

 

[Crestuff]

All Charters are definitely not created equally. I had mine at Pinnacle in Cleveland County after missing the lottery and got up out of there fast. From my experience there, it's who you know when it comes to teaching jobs at that school and had the blind leading the blind in some subjects.

Made the move to one of the SC charters you mention above. They had actual real teachers and it was night and day from Pinnacle academicly and of course sports. I know Legion asked to be placed in higher divisions but was only allowed up 1 classification. Ill admit that the school had a huge advantage but had to play where SC made them play. The other conference schools got together and made sure anyway they could get back at having to play Legion, they would. 1 conference game a little over a hour and 40 mins away, it was forcast 100% storms but still made the school come down there or forfeit. Get there, storms, have to make the drive back down there another day. Legion is in NC private school league with schools like Charlotte Christian now, because of how they where treated from public schools and the state.

I heard that same story many times as I live here in the Patterson Springs area

 

[crestcharger02]

Where would you like to start?

The fact they don't have to be responsive to the tax payer? -Because this matters and is obviously in place for traditional schools

The fact they can be run by out of state and for profit entities? Irrelevant and sounds like a personal gripe

The fact they aren't required by law to follow the school calendar laws? Again irrelevant. Take a look at school districts starting at different times or those that are year round.

The fact they don't have to follow school classroom size laws? Irrelevant and up to the parents to deal with if they wish

The fact only half the staff have to be licensed? Show some drop off in results or who cares

The fact there is no transparency in their budgeting? Doesn't matter unless you think there is something nefarious behind their spending. I'm not interested in chasing boogeymen

The fact that corporations that help build charter schools are allowed a certain percentage of enrollment? Sounds like a personal gripe and doesn't matter

The fact they aren't required to provide free and reduced lunch? Issue parents need to consider if they wish to enroll students there.

The fact that every law being passed to handcuff traditonal public schools exempts charter schools including the Parents Bill of Rights? I'm not interested in litigating your opinions on legislation passed

What about those loose academic standards? Sounds like an issue you are taking and would need to be backed up by some measure of quantifiable results.

The fact that kids can be sent back to their home school if they don't meet the criteria set forth by the charter school. Schools have standards for participation isn't a bad thing.

Ask a principal how thick their policy manual is at a traditonal school compared to a charter. Probably something traditional schools should work on and not the other way around.

Same claim, different schools, different rules

Don't tell me I lack an understanding. I'm way deeper involved in what is going on here than you realize.

Why should 1 public school be given a different set of rules than the next?

You obviously put in a little more effort with this than your previous effort. Full commendation on what site you pulled this from for those talking points.

LMAO I knew I read this list before. Cut and paste job is real in depth.

https://www.publicschoolsfirstnc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Facts-on-Charter-Schools-2023.pdf

 

[ocdavis31]

You can't force private schools to do that, so drop that nonsense. The reason alternatives to traditional publics rose up is by parents and students wanting something different. Forcing them all back on that same top down one size fits all model is counter productive.

Then don’t give vouchers for private schools.

 

[crestcharger02]

Then don’t give vouchers for private schools.

Which is fair. We do need to make an effort to limit opportunities for lower income folks.

 

[ocdavis31]

Which is fair. We do need to make an effort to limit opportunities for lower income folks.

If private schools are willing to accept government funds, there should be government oversight. Then it would truly be fair to kids with limited opportunity.

 

[crestcharger02]

If private schools are willing to accept government funds, there should be government oversight. Then it would truly be fair to kids with limited opportunity.

Yeah good luck working that around 1st amendment.

 

[heelzfor2]

Seems the GOP wants it both ways these days with this new law quietly slipped into the new budget I do believe. They can investigate anyone receiving government funds according to this, and anyone under investigation cannot say a word about it? Is this true????

The change would grant immense new powers to a state oversight committee, authorizing it to investigate state and local governments as well as private companies and charities. People who the committee feels haven't been fully cooperative could be charged with a crime. And anyone under investigation would face strict confidentiality rules — unable to talk to their coworkers, the media or anyone else about the legislature's actions, critics say.

‘Government Gestapo’ created in NC budget? Democratic lawmakers raise alarms, brushed off by GOP

A provision in the state budget would give immense new powers to a legislative committee. Republican lawmakers say they need it to hold the executive branch accountable. Democrats say GOP leaders are giving themselves the power to enact political retribution.

www.wral.com

 

[crestcharger02]

Not sure about the merits or feasibility of that provision but I lose interest when things like Gestapo are referenced.

 

[ocdavis31]

Yeah good luck working that around 1st amendment.

If the school agrees to oversight when they agree to accept the money, there’s no issue with the first amendment. See heelzfor2’s recent post if you want to talk about the first amendment.

 

[crestcharger02]

If the school agrees to oversight when they agree to accept the money, there’s no issue with the first amendment. See heelzfor2’s recent post if you want to talk about the first amendment.

Large number of privates are affiliated with churches. You can’t audit them already. So good luck with that oversight.

Already said I’m not familiar with merits of it. Do believe there are instances where one cannot comment on an indictment.

 

[ocdavis31]

Large number of privates are affiliated with churches. You can’t audit them already. So good luck with that oversight.

Already said I’m not familiar with merits of it. Do believe there are instances where one cannot comment on an indictment.

Not talking about auditing finances. Rather acceptance of some of the curriculum, admission and certification requirements. Baptist Children’s Homes had that decision to make decades ago. If they only wanted to accept white kids, no government funds. They eventually chose the money.

Only a judge can restrict someone from talking about an indictment. That’s not the legislature’s job. But it’s quite obvious that they don’t respect the other two equal branches of state government.

 

[crestcharger02]

Not talking about auditing finances. Rather acceptance of some of the curriculum, admission and certification requirements. Baptist Children’s Homes had that decision to make decades ago. If they only wanted to accept white kids, no government funds. They eventually chose the money.

Only a judge can restrict someone from talking about an indictment. That’s not the legislature’s job. But it’s quite obvious that they don’t respect the other two equal branches of state government.

So they were acting discriminatory in violation of law. That’s the same as curriculums and oversight you want.

It’s my fault for responding to the unrelated and hyperbole brought up later.

 

[ocdavis31]

So they were acting discriminatory in violation of law. That’s the same as curriculums and oversight you want.

It’s my fault for responding to the unrelated and hyperbole brought up later.

It’s part of a pattern. The party of small government wants to be in control of everything.

 

[crestcharger02]

It’s part of a pattern. The party of small government wants to be in control of everything.

Irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[ocdavis31]

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Actually, it is the discussion. Legislative overreach.

 

[crestcharger02]

Actually, it is the discussion. Legislative overreach.

Not the one I’m having. Given how poorly that was going I can see the need to shift.

 

[ocdavis31]

Not the one I’m having. Given how poorly that was going I can see the need to shift.

I didn’t do the shifting, though I do see the relevance. If you look at the several threads regarding the issue of the legislative move regarding the NCHSAA, there are few posters who support it. And the endowment fund seems to be the only rationale anyone can offer to do so. If that’s the concern, let the legislature force them to allocate it back to the member schools. But, as usual, the money is part of the shell game. It’s power and control.

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

You obviously put in a little more effort with this than your previous effort. Full commendation on what site you pulled this from for those talking points.

LMAO I knew I read this list before. Cut and paste job is real in depth.

https://www.publicschoolsfirstnc.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Facts-on-Charter-Schools-2023.pdf

You're more than welcome to tell me what's a lie and what isn't if my "talking points" are bs.

 

[crestcharger02]

I didn’t do the shifting, though I do see the relevance. If you look at the several threads regarding the issue of the legislative move regarding the NCHSAA, there are few posters who support it. And the endowment fund seems to be the only rationale anyone can offer to do so. If that’s the concern, let the legislature force them to allocate it back to the member schools. But, as usual, the money is part of the shell game. It’s power and control.

We suddenly found ourselves discussing the legislature and not schools for some reason. Can understand why we felt the need to move in that direction.

 

[crestcharger02]

You're more than welcome to tell me what's a lie and what isn't if my "talking points" are bs.

I responded to your copy/paste job in the quote. Give me something quantifiable and not talking points. If you are capable.

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

I responded to your copy/paste job in the quote. Give me something quantifiable and not talking points. If you are capable.

In regards to SB 49, The Parent Bill of Rights

SECTION 2.(c) G.S. 115C-218.10 reads as rewritten: "§ 115C-218.10. Charter school exemptions. Except as provided in this Article and Article 7B of this Chapter, and pursuant to the provisions of its charter, a charter school is exempt from statutes and rules applicable to a local board of education or local school administrative unit."

They don't have to provide transportation:

Frequently Asked Questions – North Carolina Student Transportation

They don't have to follow state curriculum:

Common Charter School Questions | NC DPI

Charter schools are public schools of choice that are authorized by the State Board of Education and operated by independent non-profit boards of directors.

www.dpi.nc.gov

 

[ocdavis31]

We suddenly found ourselves discussing the legislature and not schools for some reason. Can understand why we felt the need to move in that direction.

Did you happen to notice the title of this thread?

 

[crestcharger02]

Did you happen to notice the title of this thread?

I did. Which I was why I posted about a very specific thing. You even quoted in response to me about it. Then felt a need to go in a different direction for some reason.

Here is the deal. I don’t give a fiddler’s frick about the bulk of the discussion because the aggrieved group would likely be nodding in approval if the legislature looked like they wanted. Based on experience.

 

[btango]

Nor should they be able to turn people away. Schools can improve without eliminating the competition or denying students an opportunity for education that more fits their needs.

My point is that charters can turn away students and obviously pick and choose. If one school has students that are disruptive and cause issues is it not going to be a bit more difficult to be competitive? That’s just one example.

 

[Thunder_struck8712]

My point is that charters can turn away students and obviously pick and choose. If one school has students that are disruptive and cause issues is it not going to be a bit more difficult to be competitive? That’s just one example.

My question is, should kids that fail or are behavior issues be allowed to stay at the charter they attend? It takes alot to move a kid to an alternative school that has behavior issues from a traditional public school, and the same school can't kick a kid out for failing grades, so why should public charters be able to do so? Oh and when a student leaves a charter or gets the boot, that money doesn't follow them.

One has to be incredibly oblivious to the fact to think that charters aren't being given a different set of rules while traditional public schools are being handcuffed.

Now we have to worry if the same is going to happen to athletics.

 

[crestcharger02]

My point is that charters can turn away students and obviously pick and choose. If one school has students that are disruptive and cause issues is it not going to be a bit more difficult to be competitive? That’s just one example.

What is the point? We can be nuanced enough to understand that charters and traditional operate under different circumstances when evaluating them. At no point would that justify trying to eliminate them. Just put in more effort at figuring out why the traditional ones aren’t better.