Clinton vs Bunn...NCHSAA Apology

[NCHSFootballFan15]

The NCHSAA issued an apology to Clinton Admin this week related to the ending of the game against Bunn. The apology was for ALL 6 officials failing to flag Bunn for a VERY obvious illegal procedure on the spike play. Although the clock hit :00, the officials decided to put :01 back on the clock. Since they decided to put time back on the clock, Bunn should have been penalized 5 yards for the illegal procedure as they had multiple players not set when the ball was snapped. As soon as the ball was moved back 5 yards and marked ready for play, the ref would have blown the whistle to start the clock. The center would have to time the snap perfectly with the whistle in order to snap the ball before the :01 expired.

Putting :01 back on the clock after it expired was also very questionable, but after reviewing several different angles, it is a lot closer than some think. There isn't enough video evidence to prove this one 100% either way, so it is what it is. The illegal procedure isn't debatable and I, along with countless others, feel as if Clinton should be representing the East this Saturday night. The apology can only give so much closure to something the players/coaches/fans feel was taken from them.

With that said, good luck to Bunn! Represent the East well.

 

[Chopper747]

From pop warner to NFL I've seen some crazy calls the past 2 seasons.

 

[Inyourdome24-7]

Too little too late but hopefully they've pulled those inept officials from calling state championship game this weekend.

 

[CAVALIER DAVE]

The NCHSAA issued an apology to Clinton Admin this week related to the ending of the game against Bunn. The apology was for ALL 6 officials failing to flag Bunn for a VERY obvious illegal procedure on the spike play. Although the clock hit :00, the officials decided to put :01 back on the clock. Since they decided to put time back on the clock, Bunn should have been penalized 5 yards for the illegal procedure as they had multiple players not set when the ball was snapped. As soon as the ball was moved back 5 yards and marked ready for play, the ref would have blown the whistle to start the clock. The center would have to time the snap perfectly with the whistle in order to snap the ball before the :01 expired.

Putting :01 back on the clock after it expired was also very questionable, but after reviewing several different angles, it is a lot closer than some think. There isn't enough video evidence to prove this one 100% either way, so it is what it is. The illegal procedure isn't debatable and I, along with countless others, feel as if Clinton should be representing the East this Saturday night. The apology can only give so much closure to something the players/coaches/fans feel was taken from them.

With that said, good luck to Bunn! Represent the East well.

This is unacceptable !!!!!!!! The NCHSAA SHOULD HAVE AWARDED THE GAME TO CLINTON.....That crew should not be rehired to work any games at any level in N.C. Hate to see ANY team being treated this way

 

[TWARedRaider01]

^ If they didn't do it for Duke vs Miami they weren't going to do it in high school, its beyond pathetic i know.

 

[ALLREAL]

In my opinion I believe I have seen the same thing in NCAA and NFL where I did not think they were all set. Is it right or wrong. Idk. I do know that it is against the rules yes. Although there are a lot of other things that should be called and that are not. I think the only way people could agree or disagree is to see the video. Is there anyway HS football fans in NC can see that particular play?

 

[NCHSFootballFan15]

The NCHSAA reviewed the video which is what helped them acknowledge that a penalty should have been called.

 

[Wizard of the East]

Everything plainly seen on Hudle .

 

[fb4awhile]

The NCHSAA issued an apology to Clinton Admin this week related to the ending of the game against Bunn. The apology was for ALL 6 officials failing to flag Bunn for a VERY obvious illegal procedure on the spike play. Although the clock hit :00, the officials decided to put :01 back on the clock. Since they decided to put time back on the clock, Bunn should have been penalized 5 yards for the illegal procedure as they had multiple players not set when the ball was snapped. As soon as the ball was moved back 5 yards and marked ready for play, the ref would have blown the whistle to start the clock. The center would have to time the snap perfectly with the whistle in order to snap the ball before the :01 expired.

Putting :01 back on the clock after it expired was also very questionable, but after reviewing several different angles, it is a lot closer than some think. There isn't enough video evidence to prove this one 100% either way, so it is what it is. The illegal procedure isn't debatable and I, along with countless others, feel as if Clinton should be representing the East this Saturday night. The apology can only give so much closure to something the players/coaches/fans feel was taken from them.

With that said, good luck to Bunn! Represent the East well.

No dog in the fight.
Just want to point out the actual rules that apply.
The incomplete pass is what stopped the clock.
The 5 yard penalty for illegal procedure would be enforced and the clock would NOT start until the SNAP of the next play.
That is 100% the procedure by the rule book.

The issue of adding time back is totally separate.

 

[Wizard of the East]

here's the rule:
Penalties – The clock will stop for penalties (immediately for illegal procedure and encroachment) or upon conclusion of the play for other penalties. If the clock was running when the penalty occurred, the officials will start the clock when the ball is made ready for play. If the clock was stopped when the penalty occurred the clock will remain stopped until the snap.

 

[NCHSFootballFan15]

The penalty occurred before the "incomplete pass" (spike). The clock was running prior to the play in question. I, as well as several others, was under the impression that the clock returns to its original state once the penalty is assessed.

I don't claim to be a rules expert, but if this is the case it seems like a horrible rule. If what you are saying is true, the offense basically gets rewarded by this infraction stopping the clock. Basically, the center and the QB could run up to the ball and execute the spike which would stop the clock regardless of what the other 9 players are doing at the time of the snap. Although they are penalized 5 yards, they live to see another play, which in this case resulted in a game tying FG.

 

[BlueVols]

First off, there is no "illegal procedure", hasn't been for years. It would have been Illegal Shift or Motion but most likely Illegal Shift if the offense were all not set. Illegal shift is a foul at the snap as it can be corrected by the offense by everyone becoming set for at least a second. The incomplete pass stopped the clock so no, the clock should not have started. If the officials decided that time needed to be added back on, that is up to them.

Now, did they not flag the offense for the illegal shift or just not mark off the penalty?

 

[jacket1990]

Officiating has been nothing but crap this year on every level. Hate to see that happen to Clinton. Even NFL refs are screwing up. WTH!?!?!?!?

 

[Darkhorse#34]

Yeah I'm sure our senior football players appreciate that apology what a load of crap Clinton should be playing at Carter Finely tomorrow night smh

 

[KOOL123]

As a guy from the area everybody knows you had better have a nice lead on Bunn when time is running out....Seen it many times where they have gotten calls and you just shake your head....

 

[GoNtheDistance]

don't have a dog in the fight but watched 2 various films online and it was an absolute travesty. It literally looked like a marching band scrambling to get in position with only the center and qb set when the ball was spiked. if you watch that film, you can't tell me any rationale reason why at least 1 didn't throw their flag for illegal procedure. that's no excuse for it at all, whatsoever. I feel terrible for our friends from Clinton. they didn't play well at all but deserved to win that game.

 

[Sportsnut17]

don't have a dog in the fight but watched 2 various films online and it was an absolute travesty. It literally looked like a marching band scrambling to get in position with only the center and qb set when the ball was spiked. if you watch that film, you can't tell me any rationale reason why at least 1 didn't throw their flag for illegal procedure. that's no excuse for it at all, whatsoever. I feel terrible for our friends from Clinton. they didn't play well at all but deserved to win that game.

Can you post a link to the play?

 

[Wizard of the East]

If you can get access to Hudle or You Tube. YouTube is from a sideline cellphone with poor quality. The Hudle video is HD

 

[wildcat1294]

This is nothing but the NCHSAA trying to appease Clinton. Unless they are going to apologize for every missed call in that game, then apologizing for one is ridiculous. Every play in that game is equally important as deciding the outcome of the game. What if they reviewed a scoring play for Clinton and notice a hold that was not called, are they going to apologize for that? What if there was an interference not called, are they going to apologize for that? Every play means the same and is equally important. What about the two missed extra points by Clinton.. are they important. The fact is officials miss calls all the time. Suck it up and get over it. I know to some of you Clinton fans, Bunn IS not suppose to beat Clinton. Clinton (with Skinner) was to suppose to keep Bunn in there place. Well it did not happen. Suck it up, quit whining and move on.

Kool123, as far as that comment you made. YOu are kidding right. Bunn used to beat Southern Vance no matter where the game was played. So, what was the reason you guys lost at home? Do ya'll still play football up there in Henersun or do ya'll just focus on fence jumping and bullet dodging? That was a decade ago and you want to jump on the bandwagon.. what a joke.

 

[KOOL123]

This is nothing but the NCHSAA trying to appease Clinton. Unless they are going to apologize for every missed call in that game, then apologizing for one is ridiculous. Every play in that game is equally important as deciding the outcome of the game. What if they reviewed a scoring play for Clinton and notice a hold that was not called, are they going to apologize for that? What if there was an interference not called, are they going to apologize for that? Every play means the same and is equally important. What about the two missed extra points by Clinton.. are they important. The fact is officials miss calls all the time. Suck it up and get over it. I know to some of you Clinton fans, Bunn IS not suppose to beat Clinton. Clinton (with Skinner) was to suppose to keep Bunn in there place. Well it did not happen. Suck it up, quit whining and move on.

Kool123, as far as that comment you made. YOu are kidding right. Bunn used to beat Southern Vance no matter where the game was played. So, what was the reason you guys lost at home? Do ya'll still play football up there in Henersun or do ya'll just focus on fence jumping and bullet dodging? That was a decade ago and you want to jump on the bandwagon.. what a joke.

Now wait a darn second buddy....1st off we quit playing football several years ago when the powers that be ran off all the good coaches and put the 3 stooges in charge....But sir I can assure you that their is no bullet dodging in the Great Town of Henderson...When we shoot each other we don't miss anymore....Good Luck to the Wildcats and win the whole thing....

 

[FBRef]

here's the rule:
Penalties – The clock will stop for penalties (immediately for illegal procedure and encroachment) or upon conclusion of the play for other penalties. If the clock was running when the penalty occurred, the officials will start the clock when the ball is made ready for play. If the clock was stopped when the penalty occurred the clock will remain stopped until the snap.

This is the actual rule.

NFHS 3-4-3
The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:
a. The ball goes out of bounds.
b. B or R is awarded a new series.
c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.
d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line.
e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.
f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.
g. A period ends.
h. A team attempts to consume time illegally.
i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.
j. A fair catch is made.

The spike stops the clock. Therefore, if there's a penalty, the clock would start on the snap.

 

[FBRef]

The penalty occurred before the "incomplete pass" (spike). The clock was running prior to the play in question. I, as well as several others, was under the impression that the clock returns to its original state once the penalty is assessed.

Until the ball is snapped, the offense has the opportunity to get set. The penalty occurs at the snap. Therefore, it's a live ball foul. The incomplete pass is the result of the play and the result of the play is what determines whether the clock starts on the snap or whistle. In this case, the clock would start on the snap because of the incomplete pass.

I don't claim to be a rules expert, but if this is the case it seems like a horrible rule. If what you are saying is true, the offense basically gets rewarded by this infraction stopping the clock. Basically, the center and the QB could run up to the ball and execute the spike which would stop the clock regardless of what the other 9 players are doing at the time of the snap. Although they are penalized 5 yards, they live to see another play, which in this case resulted in a game tying FG.

If you remember, the same thing happened in a bowl game several years ago. TJ Yates ran in and spiked the ball before the rest of the offense were set. There was a 5 yard penalty but the clock was stopped and Carolina kicked a FG to tie the game.

It was after this play that the NCAA changed the rule to include a 10 second run-off. There is no such rule in HS football.

 

[NCHSFootballFan15]

Thanks for the clarification. As I stated, I don't claim to be a rules expert and it appears my assumption regarding when the clock should have started was incorrect. Maybe this particular instance will be used to help persuade the NCHSAA to change this rule to match the NCAA. It definitely rewards poor clock management by the offense.

This won't change the fact that there will always be a black cloud hanging over the last :13 of that game. We'll never know if the additional 5 yards would have made a difference in the kicker making the game tying FG or not. There isn't a Bunn fan alive that wouldn't feel the same way Clinton fans feel had the roles been reversed. I can't help but wonder how many would be ready to fire the coach for calling a run play with no timeouts if that :01 hadn't been placed back on the clock. His players (and possibly the officials) bailed him out of a very questionable play call.

Last post on this subject for me. Good luck to Bunn tonight. I think they are going to need plenty of it as would Clinton if they were representing the East.

 

[Wizard of the East]

Last comment for me as well as nothing will change. The officials blew it. As for the snap of the ball if the officials had the kahunas to make the call it's a matter of intreptation. All rules like laws in court can be interepeted differently. But since they didn't call the obvious we will never know. Good luck to Bunn, The DarkHorses will be in contention for the title next year

 

[BlueVols]

NC follows HS rules, they can't change them just to match the NCAA.

 

[sameoldthing4]

Is Skinner the best RB in the state going into 2016?

 

[Darkhorse#34]

Is Skinner the best RB in the state going into 2016?

Any Clinton fan would say yes but I guess the popular vote would be the Zamir White from Scotland.....in 2A yes I think Skinner is the best back to back 2,000 yard seasons......I expect him to have 2,000-2,500 yards next season the offense is going to be stackeddd

 

[FBRef]

All rules like laws in court can be interpreted differently.

There is no different interpretation as to when to start the clock in this situation. The clock starts on the snap after a pass is spiked to stop the clock.

 

[The Sideline Scoundrel]

Not a Bunn fan, but here's what I have to say to Clinton: DON"T PUT THE GAME IN THE HANDS OF THE REFS.
If you're that much better or deserving than Bunn to be in the game, don't let other people decide the fate of your game. Clinton would have gotten trounced just as badly by Monroe. Monroe DESERVED to be in the title game, It didn't matter who they played. Bunn v. Clinton was that evenly matched; there in all likelyhood, it would've played out the same.
Go prepare for next season, Clinton fans. Bunn probably won't be back, and you'll have to make up another excuse why you came up short.

 

[notashelbyfan]

No dog in the fight.
Just want to point out the actual rules that apply.
The incomplete pass is what stopped the clock.
The 5 yard penalty for illegal procedure would be enforced and the clock would NOT start until the SNAP of the next play.
That is 100% the procedure by the rule book.

The issue of adding time back is totally separate.

Fight to the bitter end the state reviewed it issued an apology and you going to still argue that they are wrong!

Every time there is a question about refs the ones on here always swear they do nothing wrong ever or miss a call!

 

[sameoldthing4]

Any Clinton fan would say yes but I guess the popular vote would be the Zamir White from Scotland.....in 2A yes I think Skinner is the best back to back 2,000 yard seasons......I expect him to have 2,000-2,500 yards next season the offense is going to be stackeddd

Just checked out White's highlights. Anytime or anywhere he is playing he is the best RB.

 

[Darkhorse#34]

Yeah Zamir White is a beast believe he is the #1 recruit in his class or at least the number 1 running back read in the Fayetteville observer Bama,Florida,Georgia and a bunch of other schools were after him his after his freshman year.........as for Skinner his recruitment should pick up some steam this winter/spring

 

[Darkhorse04]

It's over. Congrats to Bunn. Hope they enjoyed the state championship experience, despite the loss, the experience of such a big game, in a big stadium is second to none. Horses will try and get back to one next year.

 

[Wizard of the East]

There is no different interpretation as to when to start the clock in this situation. The clock starts on the snap after a pass is spiked to stop the clock.

But a illegal procedure hap

Any Clinton fan would say yes but I guess the popular vote would be the Zamir White from Scotland.....in 2A yes I think Skinner is the best back to back 2,000 yard seasons......I expect him to have 2,000-2,500 yards next season the offense is going to be stackeddd

Skinner has more yards per carry. 2A doesn't make any difference. Todd Gurley was 1A . Clinton's 2A program has produced 3 NFL starting running backs since 1990

 

[sameoldthing4]

Rooting very hard for Skinner and can't wait to see him one more time before he is off to school. As a Sophomore I really was iffy about how good he really was but just seeing the growth in his running in one year makes me excited to see his senior season.

 

[Wizard of the East]

Rooting very hard for Skinner and can't wait to see him one more time before he is off to school. As a Sophomore I really was iffy about how good he really was but just seeing the growth in his running in one year makes me excited to see his senior season.

Coaches said he gained 10 pounds from last year and got stronger in the weight room. I could tell this season as I saw him at times running over people and coupled with his speed and great vision , made him even more interesting to watch at times amazing.

 

[fb4awhile]

Fight to the bitter end the state reviewed it issued an apology and you going to still argue that they are wrong!

Every time there is a question about refs the ones on here always swear they do nothing wrong ever or miss a call!

If you do not like the officiating at high school football games then sign up and start officiating for real.

You seem to know everything. That is what the game needs, perfect people to make perfect calls that everyone is happy with. Can't wait to go to your first game. Please let all of NCPreps know when and where it is, so we can all go and take notes on what a perfect official looks like.

Go to NCHSAA.org - then to the officiating tab - pretty easy to follow from there.

Everyone wants to talk about it, but very few want to be about it.
Keep hiding behind your keyboard and complaining about the officiating.
That is ALL you will do.

The United States of Complainers.
Point out problems and do NOTHING to fix them.......TYPICAL

 

[Wizard of the East]

There is no different interpretation as to when to start the clock in this situation. The clock starts on the snap after a pass is spiked to stop the clock.

FBRef I know you're a ref and a moderator and maybe you've got wrong information but you're wrong.in this situation.

 

[thekidd12]

FBRef I know you're a ref and a moderator and maybe you've got wrong information but you're wrong.in this situation.

No he is not. A rule is a rule is a rule. Speed limits are rules not suggestions. You are either pregnant or not. Refs have to apply rules as they are written for NORTH CAROLINA HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL. These are not the same rules you watch from your recliner on Sunday or Saturday afternoons. Look them up. They are available online I believe. If not order a rule book. Then get back on here and apologize.

 

[Wizard of the East]

No apologizes needed he's wrong and now you're wrong. The NCHSAA knows what happened it's over. I copied and pasted the rule. I didn't make it up. If you weren't there to see what happened you really have no valid opinion.Gross mismanagement of the clock and the rules.