Clinton vs Bunn...NCHSAA Apology

[flag_em]

here's the rule:
Penalties – The clock will stop for penalties (immediately for illegal procedure and encroachment) or upon conclusion of the play for other penalties. If the clock was running when the penalty occurred, the officials will start the clock when the ball is made ready for play. If the clock was stopped when the penalty occurred the clock will remain stopped until the snap.

First -- the clock does not stop for procedure fouls -- since there is not one. There's illegal shift -- motion -- not enough on the line --- etc....and they are all live ball fouls and the clock keeps running until the play ends. On false starts and encroachments -- it's a dead ball foul and the clock is blown dead.
As Febref pointed out -- after the spike --which is an incomplete pass -- and by rule 3-4-3e-- the clock will start on the snap after a legal or illegal forward pass. What happened before that --clock running or not --is of no consequence. The spike kills it and it's in the book for a reason...black and white.

 

[thekidd12]

No apologizes needed he's wrong and now you're wrong. The NCHSAA knows what happened it's over. I copied and pasted the rule. I didn't make it up. If you weren't there to see what happened you really have no valid opinion.Gross mismanagement of the clock and the rules.

No I am not. I can have a valid opinion on a rule even if I was not there. Wait you can't have opinions on rules that's because they are RULES! Now I hate a game ended like this or actually forced overtime but by the letter of the RULE sounds like it was enforced correctly if there was indeed time left on clock when spike or even non called infraction occurred.

First -- the clock does not stop for procedure fouls -- since there is not one. There's illegal shift -- motion -- not enough on the line --- etc....and they are all live ball fouls and the clock keeps running until the play ends. On false starts and encroachments -- it's a dead ball foul and the clock is blown dead.
As Febref pointed out -- after the spike --which is an incomplete pass -- and by rule 3-4-3e-- the clock will start on the snap after a legal or illegal forward pass. What happened before that --clock running or not --is of no consequence. The spike kills it and it's in the book for a reason...black and white.

Like I said. RULES IS RULES!

 

[Wizard of the East]

If you do not like the officiating at high school football games then sign up and start officiating for real.

You seem to know everything. That is what the game needs, perfect people to make perfect calls that everyone is happy with. Can't wait to

First -- the clock does not stop for procedure fouls -- since there is not one. There's illegal shift -- motion -- not enough on the line --- etc....and they are all live ball fouls and the clock keeps running until the play ends. On false starts and encroachments -- it's a dead ball foul and the clock is blown dead.
As Febref pointed out -- after the spike --which is an incomplete pass -- and by rule 3-4-3e-- the clock will start on the snap after a legal or illegal forward pass. What happened before that --clock running or not --is of no consequence. The spike kills it and it's in the book for a reason...black and white.

 

[Wizard of the East]

You refs stick together! LOL Backing the officials in this game is horrendous .If the infraction is called there is no spike, the clock is stopped before the alleged spike occurred.It may as well not have occurred. I say attemptrd as I was there and and have seen several videos and I have yet to see the so called spike because there were so many people walking around, but I assume something of nature was attempted somewhere. But you know what it doesn't matter because the officials didn't have the kahunas to make the call, plain and simple so it's a moot point.
I said before it was my last post on the matter and it was until the officials who weren't there got into the thread. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. I heard "the rule". It's not that simple, you weren't there so you don't know what the time was nor where any of the players were positioned. To say it was spiked and that trumps everything is a stretch. Just like all of it occurring in 13 seconded, yes right!. But a wise old man once told me"they shouldn't have got them in that position to begin with" and he's correct. This was a young rebuilding DarkHorse team who I hope has learned from this experience. They won't make such mistakes next year and will hopefully be as good as another saying this old timer said. "If you're good enough you can overcome bad officiating." Now don't y'all lose any sleep over it and have a great Holiday. I plan to!

 

[thekidd12]

OK I know you are angry but it would be a moot point not one that does not talk. And I am not a ref. Do not really care which team won. Just don't understand how a rule can be wrong? I am sorry your team lost or more accurately was not allowed to win by the enforcement of said rule. I hope that in the future all games will be decided without controversy. Kahunas? To make the call you say they did at the end of regulation like that takes a large pair.

And Merry Christmas to you and yours too.

 

[btango]

Zamir White just completed his sophomore season. As a 15 year old he was a man among boys playing in a pretty strong conference.

 

[ALLREAL]

No dog in the fight.
But here is my thinking. I think even if penalty is called (Which it should have been) they go back 5 yards. Bunn's coach tell center to hike it when he hears the whistle. Snap will be off in time. The kick will count and game will be over. You could reasonably still win the game under the circumstances if applied the way that Clinton fans want. So I really do not understand argument I guess.

 

[BlueVols]

So how is he wrong Wiz? And where did you copy and paste your ruling from? That doesn't look like the rulebook format to me. FBRef's cite has the citation numbers from the book. Yours looks like something out of Wikipedia, which we ALL know is the be all, end all for proving anything.

If the offense wasn't set and they failed to call it, then that is a screw up but the clock management doesn't appear to be wrong. The incomplete pass stopped the clock and it was not to start until the next snap.

 

[Wizard of the East]

So how is he wrong Wiz? And where did you copy and paste your ruling from? That doesn't look like the rulebook format to me. FBRef's cite has the citation numbers from the book. Yours looks like something out of Wikipedia, which we ALL know is the be all, end all for proving anything.

If the offense wasn't set and they failed to call it, then that is a screw up but the clock management doesn't appear to be wrong. The incomplete pass stopped the clock and it was not to start until the next snap.

Blue Vols, I'm posting because for some time I've respected you as a poster. So you think I made it up? You don't even know what the situation was. I copy and pasted it from a rule book. So FBRefs looks more official! LOL Look rules can be interpreted many ways as you can see. Our courts have ruled, even laws and they're interpreted differently every single day. Any way you want to put it this was a grossly mismanaged situation by the officials and the funny thing my critics weren't even there! I believe I'd be silent on the matter if I weren't there to actually see it. Video? You're going to tell me you can tell from that video ? Yea right. Good to see you guys sticking together. I kind of expected it.

 

[notashelbyfan]

If you do not like the officiating at high school football games then sign up and start officiating for real.

You seem to know everything. That is what the game needs, perfect people to make perfect calls that everyone is happy with. Can't wait to go to your first game. Please let all of NCPreps know when and where it is, so we can all go and take notes on what a perfect official looks like.

Go to NCHSAA.org - then to the officiating tab - pretty easy to follow from there.

Everyone wants to talk about it, but very few want to be about it.
Keep hiding behind your keyboard and complaining about the officiating.
That is ALL you will do.

The United States of Complainers.
Point out problems and do NOTHING to fix them.......TYPICAL

Thats not the point everyone knows no one is prefect and no one expects them to be but there are bad refs every where you turn these days. The point I'm making is if your wrong your wrong missing calls is not the point making mistakes is not the point it you and your brethren have the mind set that none of you ever make a mistake.

Now I know for a fact that there are good refs out there and I wouldnt want that job for hell and I know you guys don't make enough you couldn't pay me enough to do it but all we as fans and I'm sure coaches want is refs that know that there is a football game going on and NO ONE is there to see them. The best officiated ball game you will ever see is the one where NO ONE even realises there are officials there and I'm not talking about keeping your flag in your pocket!

I seen a refund in the playoffs this year spot a ball then pick the ball up and carry it over to the sidelines to measure it for a 1st down instead of bringing the chains to the ball!

I mean this is simple stuff and I have seen quit a few things like that this year!

 

[Wizard of the East]

Thats not the point everyone knows no one is prefect and no one expects them to be but there are bad refs every where you turn these days. The point I'm making is if your wrong your wrong missing calls is not the point making mistakes is not the point it you and your brethren have the mind set that none of you ever make a mistake.

Now I know for a fact that there are good refs out there and I wouldnt want that job for hell and I know you guys don't make enough you couldn't pay me enough to do it but all we as fans and I'm sure coaches want is refs that know that there is a football game going on and NO ONE is there to see them. The best officiated ball game you will ever see is the one where NO ONE even realises there are officials there and I'm not talking about keeping your flag in your pocket!

I seen a refund in the playoffs this year spot a ball then pick the ball up and carry it over to the sidelines to measure it for a 1st down instead of bringing the chains to the ball!

I mean this is simple stuff and I have seen quit a few things like that this year!

Worst year for officiating at every level I've seen in years. Heck on the collegiate level they're microscoping the game and the video officials (and the communicator) still can't get it right after as much as 9 min (the Duke/Miami game) and still can't get it right! Do away with the video review altogether. It just adds another level of controversary (the game survived over 100 years without it and fans filled the stadiums and TV broadcasted the games. It's crazy. At the pro level, you talk about RULES they've established a committee to establish what constitutes a catch. It's just got crazy. Officials are going to make mistakes like in the game in point but leave it on the field. Sure we will complain etc but leave the game on the field. Bad calls, interpretations, is part of the game. It's not cut and dry. It's not perfect. Folks around Clinton will be reminiscing for years about the imperfections of the game and that's okay but leave it there.

 

[thekidd12]

So how is he wrong Wiz? And where did you copy and paste your ruling from? That doesn't look like the rulebook format to me. FBRef's cite has the citation numbers from the book. Yours looks like something out of Wikipedia, which we ALL know is the be all, end all for proving anything.

If the offense wasn't set and they failed to call it, then that is a screw up but the clock management doesn't appear to be wrong. The incomplete pass stopped the clock and it was not to start until the next snap.

Look apparently they were wrong because no one that is quoting the actual NFS rules on the situation that was presented was actually there. That is the only explanation that has been given. You guys were not there. You were not there and you all stick together. Look at video, no wait don't look at video because you can't tell from a video because you weren't there. I am sorry I took up for the rules of high school football because I was not there therefore I am wrong. Sound about right?

 

[thekidd12]

Worst year for officiating at ever level I've seen in years. Heck on the collegiate level they're microscoping the game and the video officials (and the communicator) still can't get it right after as much as 9 min (the Duke/Miami game) and still can't get it right! Do away with the video review altogether. It just adds another level of controversies. (the game survived over 100 years without it sand fans filled the stadiums and TV broadcasted the games) It's crazy. At the pro level, you talk about RULES they've established a committee to establish what constitutes a catch. It's just got crazy. Officials are going to make mistakes like in the game in point but leave it on the field. Sure we will complain etc but leave the game on the field. Bad calls, interpretations, is part of the game. It's not perfect. Folks around Clinton will be reminiscing for years about the imperfections of the game and that's okay but leave it there.

Wiz this is a great post. Last I will say on this game/subject. Great Job!!

 

[BlueVols]

I'm not saying you made it up, I am asking what rule book you copied and pasted from because what you posted isn't how the rule book reads or is formatted. It looks like a generic statement from Wikipedia or some other encyclopedic reference.

I got no problem with your opinion of how things shook out in the game, but no more than I would take my truck mechanic's opinion on what he thought the doctor needs to do with my foot, I'm not going to take your "ruling" on the rules when several refs have come on here and one even cited the rule book as formatted.

 

[Wizard of the East]

O

I'm not saying you made it up, I am asking what rule book you copied and pasted from because what you posted isn't how the rule book reads or is formatted. It looks like a generic statement from Wikipedia or some other encyclopedic reference.

I got no problem with your opinion of how things shook out in the game, but no more than I would take my truck mechanic's opinion on what he thought the doctor needs to do with my foot, I'm not going to take your "ruling" on the rules when several refs have come on here and one even cited the rule book as formatted.

Oh I I see so the refs are gods! Guess what they're not, they make mistakes and in this matter they and he's wrong. Who knows where he got his ruling, you say it looks official. Well it doesn't explain the situation as it happened and you nor he were there to see it as it happened. Some might say it's kind of foolish to rule on something you actually didn't see. Since you have no respect for my opinion, I'll just hit the ignore button and won't have so see you sucking up stuff, You have a good Christmas. Help out those refs a much as you can. They need it ! Good day

 

[Inyourdome24-7]

Dead issue. NCHSAA admitted and apologized for the officials mistake. Doesn't matter what the board officials say. They were wrong. End of story.

 

[Wizard of the East]

Dead issue. NCHSAA admitted and apologized for the officials mistake. Doesn't matter what the board officials say. They were wrong. End of story.

Your post pretty much sums it up! Looking forward to next year not that far off!

 

[FBRef]

No apologizes needed he's wrong and now you're wrong. The NCHSAA knows what happened it's over. I copied and pasted the rule. I didn't make it up. If you weren't there to see what happened you really have no valid opinion.Gross mismanagement of the clock and the rules.

First, to respond to your previous comment, there's no such thing as "illegal procedure" under NFHS rules. As described, the foul would have been for an illegal shift, if all 11 players were not set for 1 second. An illegal shift foul cannot occur until the ball is snapped. Therefore, even if a foul occurred before the snap, the spike is legal. The incomplete pass means the clock starts on the snap for the next play.

I have no idea where you got what you posted but it does not appear in the NFHS Football Rule Book. I posted the correct rule directly from the NFHS rules. The clock starts on the snap after an incomplete pass, either legal or illegal. This was a legal spike. Whether or not a foul may or may not have occurred during the play has no effect on that fact.

As further evidence that what you posted is not the NFHS rule, their rules are not available online except to those who are officials and are members of the National Federation of High Schools. They do not make them available to anyone for free. They want payment for the intellectual property.

But feel free to post a link to the site from which you copied and pasted if you're so sure you're correct.

 

[Wizard of the East]

i'm done. No sense arguing with someone who knows everything. I do know one thing, you weren't there to see what happened, how it happened nor when it happened. All you know is what someone told you and what you can read out if a book. Don't get in the lawyering business. If you do go ahead and get in the unemployment line because you're going broke. Rules laws, it's all the same thing and the way they're applied. The Pharisees had rules and laws, didn't mean they were right. I'd hit the ignore button for you too but I can't because you're a moderator. My source ? Don't matter, I didn't make it up, anything else is a matter of opinion. I'll just stay away for awhile or possibly retire. After 14,188 post maybe I'll just give it up and let y'all play moderator patrol!

 

[thekidd12]

First, to respond to your previous comment, there's no such thing as "illegal procedure" under NFHS rules. As described, the foul would have been for an illegal shift, if all 11 players were not set for 1 second. An illegal shift foul cannot occur until the ball is snapped. Therefore, even if a foul occurred before the snap, the spike is legal. The incomplete pass means the clock starts on the snap for the next play.

I have no idea where you got what you posted but it does not appear in the NFHS Football Rule Book. I posted the correct rule directly from the NFHS rules. The clock starts on the snap after an incomplete pass, either legal or illegal. This was a legal spike. Whether or not a foul may or may not have occurred during the play has no effect on that fact.

As further evidence that what you posted is not the NFHS rule, their rules are not available online except to those who are officials and are members of the National Federation of High Schools. They do not make them available to anyone for free. They want payment for the intellectual property.

But feel free to post a link to the site from which you copied and pasted if you're so sure you're correct.

OK raining and had to say one more thing.

FBref I did find a link for the 2014 NFHS rule book. Someone has posted it in PDF form. Unfortunately like many rule books it reads like a tax form. I believe rule that covers the situation is on or around page 42?

Here is the link http://www.sdcfoa.org/wp-content/uploads/NFHS_Rules.pdf

I realize that people become emotional when discussing situations involving their team. Fan after all is short for fanatic. However without a set of rules football would be a bunch of people chasing a ball all willy nilly.

Wiz it is nice that you support your team so intently but even when countless people have presented the actual high school rule to you and how it is enforced you still insist they are wrong because they were not there. I personally enjoy discussing rules of sports and their interpretations usually on the baseball field. Sometimes I am even wrong and I admit it especially when it comes to high school because they are a unique set.

The illegal shift, that everyone agrees occurred, would have caused the field goal to be a 29 yard attempt instead of 24. Would that have made a difference? Maybe. This what the NCHSAA apparently apologized for. The 1 second put back on clock I do not know about because I was not there. Do not believe this was included in apology. Now everyone please read the rules and memorize for class tomorrow.

Now in this thread we have mentioned incompetent referees, NFL reviews, NFHS rule book, Miami/Duke game, courts of law, Wikapedia and even Pharisees!! Most varied thread of year?

 

[FBRef]

i'm done. No sense arguing with someone who knows everything. I do know one thing, you weren't there to see what happened, how it happened nor when it happened. All you know is what someone told you and what you can read out if a book. Don't get in the lawyering business. If you do go ahead and get in the unemployment line because you're going broke. Rules laws, it's all the same thing and the way they're applied. The Pharisees had rules and laws, didn't mean they were right. I'd hit the ignore button for you too but I can't because you're a moderator. My source ? Don't matter, I didn't make it up, anything else is a matter of opinion. I'll just stay away for awhile or possibly retire. After 14,188 post maybe I'll just give it up and let y'all play moderator patrol!

Wiz, feel free to insult me all you want. I guess it makes you feel like a big man but it means nothing to me. I stopped worrying about people calling me names when I was a child.

I've never said a flag should or shouldn't have been thrown. Makes no difference to me. I don't need to have been at the game to know what the rule is and how it should be applied. I quoted the NFHS rule book. You quoted something you found on the Internet that you can't even cite a link to now.

You're a fan, and of course, will have tremendous bias toward your team. To ignore the facts and rules that are posted allows you to continue with your current theme of "the refs screwed us." That's fine. I have no dog in this fight, I simply posted the correct rule to prove you wrong.

thekidd12, yes, you found last year's rulebook. That would be an illegal publishing of it since the NFHS forbids it. But you are correct. The rule I cited can be found at the bottom of page 42.

 

[Wizard of the East]

Never called you a name, just said you're wrong. You're still wrong. Insult you? You've insulted yourself. Not being there you should have said offered/nothing but you're one of those referees that wants to be the game not officiate the game. Good officials that didn't see the play or offense says/calls nothing. You sir come on here citing rules. Insult? You need to be insulted. If I wish I'll insult you all I want but in this matter I'll just show you where you're wrong . Has nothing to do about rules. If that insults you so be it Keep supporting sorry officials.

 

[notashelbyfan]

First, to respond to your previous comment, there's no such thing as "illegal procedure" under NFHS rules. As described, the foul would have been for an illegal shift, if all 11 players were not set for 1 second. An illegal shift foul cannot occur until the ball is snapped. Therefore, even if a foul occurred before the snap, the spike is legal. The incomplete pass means the clock starts on the snap for the next play.

I have no idea where you got what you posted but it does not appear in the NFHS Football Rule Book. I posted the correct rule directly from the NFHS rules. The clock starts on the snap after an incomplete pass, either legal or illegal. This was a legal spike. Whether or not a foul may or may not have occurred during the play has no effect on that fact.

As further evidence that what you posted is not the NFHS rule, their rules are not available online except to those who are officials and are members of the National Federation of High Schools. They do not make them available to anyone for free. They want payment for the intellectual property.

But feel free to post a link to the site from which you copied and pasted if you're so sure you're correct.

Ref not to throw anymore fuel on the fire or anything but if your right and that call was correct why would they issue an apology and say the call was wrong!

I think that the issue here and why wiz is so upset with the responses here is because I know for what I have read on here and I see his point in the past 10 or so years on here when discussions have come up on here about calls or rules at any level of football there has NEVER been a ref that has made a mistake or missed a call that I have seen.

I think what has rubbed him wrong was that everyone of you refs said that the call was right and it didn't matter what the state or anyone said they are all wrong because it's not possible for a ref to have made a mistake that would cost a team at that level of the playoffs.

Twist words any way you want and talk about where the rules are and aren't but the state would not have issued that apology if there wasn't a mistake made!

Also am I the only one that thinks it is totally nuts not to have the rules avaliable per the Internet in the day and age?

 

[Wizard of the East]

notashebyfan, well stated. The rules on line where ordinary people can see them haha, only the Pharasies have access to the real RULES! It's more than rules and you've pointed that out well. Sometimes in sporting evens it's not what the officials call it's what they don't call. But you got it right, listen to them and they don't make mistakes! You have a Merry Christmas!

 

[Godevilsgo]

notashebyfan, well stated. The rules on line where ordinary people can see them haha, only the Pharasies have access to the RULES! It's more than rules and you've pointed that out well. Sometimes in sporting evens it's not what the officials call it's what they don't call. But you got it right, listen to them and they don't make mistakes! You have a Merry Christmas!

High school rules are a published book. They make their money off the book sales. its like an electrical, HVAC, or plumbing code book where the book keeps the organization going. Weird but factual.

 

[thekidd12]

OK for everybody that wants to look at high school football rules go either here:

http://www.nfhs.com/c-204-football.aspx $8.20

or for the digital folks here:

http://www.nfhs.org/articles/rules-books-and-case-books-available-as-e-books/ $5.99

 

[BlueVols]

O
Oh I I see so the refs are gods! Guess what they're not, they make mistakes and in this matter they and he's wrong. Who knows where he got his ruling, you say it looks official. Well it doesn't explain the situation as it happened and you nor he were there to see it as it happened. Some might say it's kind of foolish to rule on something you actually didn't see. Since you have no respect for my opinion, I'll just hit the ignore button and won't have so see you sucking up stuff, You have a good Christmas. Help out those refs a much as you can. They need it ! Good day

Hyperbole much? I know what the rule book says because I've read one on occasion, not the Little Golden Book Treasury of Football Rules you seem to be quoting from.

Ignoring is fine. Ignorant is more apt for you.

 

[Darkhorse04]

This is all just so crazy. Clinton Lost, Bunn Won. The refs may have cost us, but we shouldn't have let it be in their hands. Give Wiz a break, he is the most passionate Dark Horse fan there is around Clinton and everyone knows it. He is usually very level headed about things like this and is easy to talk to in person and on preps, but this has got under his skin and I understand it. It has effected a lot of Clinton fans, personally I wish we wouldn't have a received an apology because its just salt on a open wound but I understand why they did it and for that its at least appreciated. The apology that is, not the miss call. Bunn won, Clinton Lost, the refs screwed up, these were the events of that night and they are unchangeable. Let's all move on, if history holds true, Clinton will get another shot again soon to have a chance to make another state Title game. Go Horses!
P.S. Wiz, see you around town. Everyone have a Merry Christmas!

 

[GoNtheDistance]

Guys, save your bullets. I've been here a very long the as have many of you. In all my years on here, ref will always defend his peers in stripes no matter how wrong they may be in handling certain games, calls, etc. he also plays the passive aggressive card to a t to get you riled up. Let him talk his way out of credibility on here for those that still think he's credible. Those are few and far between because this is his norm. I usually ignore his officiating love fest but just wanted to encourage you guys to drop it.

He'd probably defend the buffoon in the Acc title game that made that bogus offsides call on the onside kick recovered by unc.....

 

[Darkhorse04]

Guys, save your bullets. I've been here a very long the as have many of you. In all my years on here, ref will always defend his peers in stripes no matter how wrong they may be in handling certain games, calls, etc. he also plays the passive aggressive card to a t to get you riled up. Let him talk his way out of credibility on here for those that still think he's credible. Those are few and far between because this is his norm. I usually ignore his officiating love fest but just wanted to encourage you guys to drop it.

He'd probably defend the buffoon in the Acc title game that made that bogus offsides call on the onside kick recovered by unc.....

I was just waiting for someone to bring that horrible call up. I was there, it was a bad one to, but hey SH*T happens.