To the NCHSAA, an open letter.
- Thread starter 72 State Champion
- Start date
Hello everyone.
The NCHSAA board meets this week and we wanted to present our case again on the thin hope they may bother to check prep threads.
As stated before, we have written the NCHSAA directly and were quickly dismissed. We are not going away.
Far be it for the NCHSAA to desire to discover what is on the minds of those of us that support and attend North Carolina high school athletics and pay their salaries.
The boards of each classifications here had comments we will address in our next post.
We have been distracted lately by some big games.
The NCHSAA board meets this week and we wanted to present our case again on the thin hope they may bother to check prep threads.
As stated before, we have written the NCHSAA directly and were quickly dismissed. We are not going away.
Far be it for the NCHSAA to desire to discover what is on the minds of those of us that support and attend North Carolina high school athletics and pay their salaries.
The boards of each classifications here had comments we will address in our next post.
We have been distracted lately by some big games.
Greensboro paper today mentioned Reidsville's 16 state titles ... forgetting the 3 that the 1963, 1969 and 1970 teams won and rightly deserve to have recognized. Most newspapers - even Greensboro in previous editions - recognize Reidsville' 19 titles. The NCHSAA needs to get it straight.
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Yes ... but any time a team wins the last game the association - any association - allows, it should count. It's a slap in the face to the student-athletes who won their final playoff game that the NCHSAA was foolish during those years.
So when there were four district champions they were each a state champ?
Division II regional game winning teams are a state champ?
9-1. Won last regular season game is a state champ? Second in conference but did not qualify for the playoffs are a state champ?
I am going to ask a guy that played on the three Page state title game teams about the 1984 "co state championship".
I am going to check with a couple of coaches from that era on why they did not play through to a state title. I was told in the past that it was because the schools wanted football season finished by a certain date. Not sure if it was the main reason but that was in the days before specialization took off and a lot of coaches coached both football and basketball.
Maybe it's because they knew, without the WNCHSAA teams, they really weren't state champs. LOL.
That last reply didn't appear as I hoped:
So when there were four district champions they were each a state champ?
yes. NCHSAA said that was the last playoff game allowed. I know the teams that won those games claimed a title. There are 8 champions now. No matter how you divide the state's teams, as long as you win your last one the NCHSAA allows, you are a champion.
Division II regional game winning teams are a state champ? If it was the last game the state allowed, yes ... I think they played another week.
9-1. Won last regular season game is a state champ? Second in conference but did not qualify for the playoffs are a state champ? no way. Playoffs determine state champs, not regular season.
I am going to ask a guy that played on the three Page state title game teams about the 1984 "co state championship". Not sure what you're talking about here
So when there were four district champions they were each a state champ?
yes. NCHSAA said that was the last playoff game allowed. I know the teams that won those games claimed a title. There are 8 champions now. No matter how you divide the state's teams, as long as you win your last one the NCHSAA allows, you are a champion.
Division II regional game winning teams are a state champ? If it was the last game the state allowed, yes ... I think they played another week.
9-1. Won last regular season game is a state champ? Second in conference but did not qualify for the playoffs are a state champ? no way. Playoffs determine state champs, not regular season.
I am going to ask a guy that played on the three Page state title game teams about the 1984 "co state championship". Not sure what you're talking about here
I was a senior when we won the 1969 title and we all thought it was a state championship at the time... we won the last game of the playoffs, beating Mount Airy in a classic at Mt. Airy.
Same thing in 1970 when Reidsville beat Pisgah at Kiker Stadium in Reidsville.
Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong. Two different issues.
When Reidsville won their championships in 1969 and 1970 the NCHSAA advertised both the Western and Eastern Finals as State Championship matches. But "upon further review" they were determined to be Regional Championships and the State Champions label was taken away.
Trying to claim the WNCHSAA Regional titles as State Champions is ludicrous. Even that Activities Association recognized that it was only a Western North Carolina organization. They never claimed to be a statewide group. Those teams were great teams but if your organization is only comprised of team in 13 counties that chose not to compete in the state wide NCHSAA then you have forfeited the right to claim to be a State Champion.
And this has nothing to do with the student athletes. They were properly recognized as Champions of their association at that time as they should have been. And all of those teams and individuals should be so honored. This revisionist claim has everything to do with individuals trying to rewrite history to fit their own selfish claims.
Mule, there were as many schools in the Western activities association in 1969 as there were in the NCHSAA 3-A west region.
I recently heard......2A is so loaded this year, if we only had one state champion, it would be considered child abuse to put a team thru that five weeks of physicality.
No matter how they divide them ... you win the last playoff game scheduled you're state champ. They've divided it different ways since the 1920s. Many more schools playing football now than there were 30-40-50 years ago so now more divisions. Don't get hung up on the 4 classes -- there are 8 classes for football based on ADM.
IMO, too many teams make the playoffs but the NCHSAA rules.
I would have to say yes. That group had a playoff involving the same number of teams and the same number of games as NCHSAA West Regional did in 1969 and 1970. Not sure about previous years since I haven't researched that fully.
Not a perfect scenario in either case, but it was what it was back in the Wild, Wild West. Teams won three playoff games and association(s) said that was far as you're going.
Some folks will argue today that since 2A champ doesn't play 2AA champ, that's not a state champ. But the 2AA champ doesn't play the 3A champ either. It's all about how you divide the pool. Win your last game, bring home the trophy as state champ.
The NCAA doesn't have it figured out either. I'm loving that it's so muddled.
Not a perfect scenario in either case, but it was what it was back in the Wild, Wild West. Teams won three playoff games and association(s) said that was far as you're going.
Some folks will argue today that since 2A champ doesn't play 2AA champ, that's not a state champ. But the 2AA champ doesn't play the 3A champ either. It's all about how you divide the pool. Win your last game, bring home the trophy as state champ.
The NCAA doesn't have it figured out either. I'm loving that it's so muddled.
The NCHSAA titles read as State 2AA or State 2A.
I do not support subdivided playoffs, think too many teams make the playoffs, and there are too many state champions. It is the way of the nation generate more money and give more trophies.
At least with subdivided playoffs they are splitting a classification equally and playing teams from Manteo to Murphy.
I am going to South Stanly tomorrow and have change the engraving on their District football title trophies to State Champs or State Quad Champ.
I do not support subdivided playoffs, think too many teams make the playoffs, and there are too many state champions. It is the way of the nation generate more money and give more trophies.
At least with subdivided playoffs they are splitting a classification equally and playing teams from Manteo to Murphy.
I am going to South Stanly tomorrow and have change the engraving on their District football title trophies to State Champs or State Quad Champ.
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For the WNCHSAA we will change it to the 13 county champs.
NCHSAA will be the 3A 93 county champs.
***Note some counties had schools in both.
The NCHSAA 3A title was contested by teams from west of Asheville and on the coast with a gap of about 10% of the counties and schools in the state.
The other three classes can stay state champs.
NCHSAA will be the 3A 93 county champs.
***Note some counties had schools in both.
The NCHSAA 3A title was contested by teams from west of Asheville and on the coast with a gap of about 10% of the counties and schools in the state.
The other three classes can stay state champs.
Y'all can banter semantically all you want...In my mind Reidsville has won 19 state titles..............
Thanks for your support TGT.
Funny how we are the only two here that actually played on State Champion teams that need to be recognized as such.
Mule is so consumed with Shelby hate, he does not realize that, followed to his logical conclusion, none of Reidsville's State Championships from 1930 to 1970 would count in a summary where rival associations prohibit a fully qualified State Champion. He does not realize we are fighting for him, too.
And this cause goes way beyond just Shelby and Reidsville programs.
And as for btango, what is your deal man? You have also shown a disdain for us personally and some how appoint yourself as THE authority on NC high school football history. You have always failed to identify on WHAT authority you speak nor share your resume. What are you hiding?
Your data is presented to purposefully cloud and confuse the discussion, all the while knowing what we are trying to accomplish with this mission.
The last WNCHSAA year had 38 teams, and the NCHSAA 3A had about 90, you say? Yet the NCHSAA 3A title contested was only missing 10% of the state's 3A schools, you say?
Try 30%, or A THIRD OF THE STATE'S 3A SCHOOLS. You know btango, the good ones in the MIDDLE of the state. See what we mean?
So why do you care?
What we are after is just fair and accurate recognition. There were two(2) separate 3A level champions in NC public high schools.
If one is deemed a State Champion, then the other is also.
And everyone wins.
Do you really think a player from a unified classes SINGLE State Champion from 1977 until 2000 is going to protest this correction, as some sort of "everyone gets a trophy" stupidity? Really? Other than 1913 to 1929 champs, those guys had the toughest road.
Wait...we have some of those players around here.
No. They don't care.
Make the change.
Funny how we are the only two here that actually played on State Champion teams that need to be recognized as such.
Mule is so consumed with Shelby hate, he does not realize that, followed to his logical conclusion, none of Reidsville's State Championships from 1930 to 1970 would count in a summary where rival associations prohibit a fully qualified State Champion. He does not realize we are fighting for him, too.
And this cause goes way beyond just Shelby and Reidsville programs.
And as for btango, what is your deal man? You have also shown a disdain for us personally and some how appoint yourself as THE authority on NC high school football history. You have always failed to identify on WHAT authority you speak nor share your resume. What are you hiding?
Your data is presented to purposefully cloud and confuse the discussion, all the while knowing what we are trying to accomplish with this mission.
The last WNCHSAA year had 38 teams, and the NCHSAA 3A had about 90, you say? Yet the NCHSAA 3A title contested was only missing 10% of the state's 3A schools, you say?
Try 30%, or A THIRD OF THE STATE'S 3A SCHOOLS. You know btango, the good ones in the MIDDLE of the state. See what we mean?
So why do you care?
What we are after is just fair and accurate recognition. There were two(2) separate 3A level champions in NC public high schools.
If one is deemed a State Champion, then the other is also.
And everyone wins.
Do you really think a player from a unified classes SINGLE State Champion from 1977 until 2000 is going to protest this correction, as some sort of "everyone gets a trophy" stupidity? Really? Other than 1913 to 1929 champs, those guys had the toughest road.
Wait...we have some of those players around here.
No. They don't care.
Make the change.
The NCHSAA list their Western and Eastern champions as Regional champions so why would they list the WNCHSAA champion as a state champion?
The NCHSAA had over 60% of their schools in 2A and 3A. Some schools that would have been 4A were moved down to 3A. Over 300 schools located in 93 counties played football in the NCHSAA while 38 schools located in 13 counties elected not to play with the rest of the state.
I think you are "after fair" when it is good for Shelby.
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Certainly, this is about Shelby. But it's also about Lexington, Lincolnton, Thomasville, Hickory, and other schools in the WNCHSAA. In an association where only the conference champion made it to the playoffs. Even when there was a two- or three-way tie and a draw for inclusion.
Just curious. Is it okay that the NCAA had multiple national champions in football on occasion when they were determined by the AP and the UPI? Or should only the AP champ count, since that was the larger body?
Just curious. Is it okay that the NCAA had multiple national champions in football on occasion when they were determined by the AP and the UPI? Or should only the AP champ count, since that was the larger body?
I once spoke to a member of the 1964 Waynesville Township HS football team, who beat Chapel Hill HS on Thanksgiving Day for the 3A Western region championship- he considers it a state championship. An East-West final wasn't allowed at that point.
Perception is reality.
Perception is reality.
btango-
We are going to go over this one more time, just for you. Real slowly.
From 1930 to 1976, there were two (2) 3A level classes in North Carolina public high schools.
One was in the NCHSAA.
The other was the WNCHSAA.
Using your own numbers, that class in the NCHSAA had about 90 schools in it.
The WNCHSAA had 38 schools in it.
That is all we are discussing here.
90 vs 38.
The 1961 to 1971 "regional champs" years in 3A in the NCHSAA serves no purpose in this debate, other than, as you have done, to be used to somehow defend the decision to term the WNCHSAA as "regional" as well. It has become a "cover your butt" excuse for the NCHSAA.
Meanwhile, we have heard from three players that consider their championships during that 61-71 period as "State Championships". They won all they could under then playoff formats. Why deny them that on a technicality? Who gets hurt?
What about from 1930 to 1960 and 1972 to 1976?
When defining those years, the NCHSAA refers to their 3A champ as "State Champions", knowing full well the existence of a rival association made up of a THIRD of the state's 3A level public high schools.
If one champion is going to be termed a "State Champion" while only representing 2/3rds of the state's schools, then the champion representing the other 1/3rd of the state's schools can and should be termed "state champions", also.
Or neither of them are.
Go tell Reidsville that.
And despite your cheap shot, this affects many schools and players from across the state. We have received support on this from many on this site and others.
Quit making yourself the "State Champions" police.
Leave it alone. Go away.
You have nothing positive to contribute and you cowardly refuse to identify yourself.
We are going to go over this one more time, just for you. Real slowly.
From 1930 to 1976, there were two (2) 3A level classes in North Carolina public high schools.
One was in the NCHSAA.
The other was the WNCHSAA.
Using your own numbers, that class in the NCHSAA had about 90 schools in it.
The WNCHSAA had 38 schools in it.
That is all we are discussing here.
90 vs 38.
The 1961 to 1971 "regional champs" years in 3A in the NCHSAA serves no purpose in this debate, other than, as you have done, to be used to somehow defend the decision to term the WNCHSAA as "regional" as well. It has become a "cover your butt" excuse for the NCHSAA.
Meanwhile, we have heard from three players that consider their championships during that 61-71 period as "State Championships". They won all they could under then playoff formats. Why deny them that on a technicality? Who gets hurt?
What about from 1930 to 1960 and 1972 to 1976?
When defining those years, the NCHSAA refers to their 3A champ as "State Champions", knowing full well the existence of a rival association made up of a THIRD of the state's 3A level public high schools.
If one champion is going to be termed a "State Champion" while only representing 2/3rds of the state's schools, then the champion representing the other 1/3rd of the state's schools can and should be termed "state champions", also.
Or neither of them are.
Go tell Reidsville that.
And despite your cheap shot, this affects many schools and players from across the state. We have received support on this from many on this site and others.
Quit making yourself the "State Champions" police.
Leave it alone. Go away.
You have nothing positive to contribute and you cowardly refuse to identify yourself.
So, if anyone does not support your insane ideas, then we are "Shelby haters" or "cowardly" making "cheap shots"?
Good luck Friday night. This "Shelby hater" will be pulling for the Golden Lions in their Drive for Five.
In the 1969-70 NCHSAA alignment, there were five 3-A conferences and 43 schools in the East and five 3-A conferences and 37 schools in West (I know at least one of the 37 schools in the West didn't field a football team). Meanwhile, there were 38 schools in the WNCHSAA.
There were three playoff tournaments involving these schools. Three teams - Fayetteville 71st (NCHSAA East), Reidsville (NCHSAA West) and Shelby (WNCHSAA) - each won three playoff games and were crowned champions.
It wasn't a perfect scenario for like-sized schools but it was what it was. The powers that be divided the playoffs into regions that year.
Today, with many more schools in the state (and even the inclusion of several non-public schools) they sub-divide the playoffs by ADMs. The NCHSAA doesn't let the 3A champ play the 3AA champ ... so you got the same old stale argument of not being allowed to play it off to one champ per class.
But, in a couple of weeks there will be 8 teams that won the last playoff game the association allowed and all 8 will be champions.
IMO, any school that wins the final game in a playoff tournament no matter how they slice it up is a state champion.
You can add an asterisk to the listing if you want, but please include all in the discussion of all-time state champions. Anything less is a snub to the student-athletes who won those titles.
There were three playoff tournaments involving these schools. Three teams - Fayetteville 71st (NCHSAA East), Reidsville (NCHSAA West) and Shelby (WNCHSAA) - each won three playoff games and were crowned champions.
It wasn't a perfect scenario for like-sized schools but it was what it was. The powers that be divided the playoffs into regions that year.
Today, with many more schools in the state (and even the inclusion of several non-public schools) they sub-divide the playoffs by ADMs. The NCHSAA doesn't let the 3A champ play the 3AA champ ... so you got the same old stale argument of not being allowed to play it off to one champ per class.
But, in a couple of weeks there will be 8 teams that won the last playoff game the association allowed and all 8 will be champions.
IMO, any school that wins the final game in a playoff tournament no matter how they slice it up is a state champion.
You can add an asterisk to the listing if you want, but please include all in the discussion of all-time state champions. Anything less is a snub to the student-athletes who won those titles.
TGT, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
And a State Champion.
Can you join is at the NCHSAA meeting on Wednesday?
We would love your support.
And Mule, you are free to rant all you want. And with our blessing.
It is fun to watch you contradict yourself. Only you could stretch our post to such nutty generalizations.
You, unlike btango, are a known entity to us. And put in your place by us many, many threads ago. Even those in your own camp ignore you.
And a State Champion.
Can you join is at the NCHSAA meeting on Wednesday?
We would love your support.
And Mule, you are free to rant all you want. And with our blessing.
It is fun to watch you contradict yourself. Only you could stretch our post to such nutty generalizations.
You, unlike btango, are a known entity to us. And put in your place by us many, many threads ago. Even those in your own camp ignore you.
In 1969 Northeastern (Elizabeth City) Eastern 3A champ and Reidsville Western....in 1970 Fayetteville 71st was East 3A and Reidsville West 3A...Did Shelby win WNCHSAA in 69 and 70 or just one of those 2 years, and if not who was the other WNCHSAA school?? In my mind ALL are state champions.......................
72 ... to set the record straight ... I was not on the 1969 state championship roster because they didn't include players on IR, which I was with a broke knee. That's the year I was enlisted by the late, great coach John Morris to keep the team stats since I couldn't play as I had done in previous years. I've been compiling stats or helping in that capacity - off and on - ever since.
I enjoy high school football and really like delving into "N.C. Schoolboy" football history - that was the term used back in the day instead of prep, I believe. I like presenting the facts and once in a while an opinion.
I can't be there Wednesday as I'm in a golf tournament but send them my regards.
I don't ignore the Mule - he's a gentleman and a scholar and a civic leader in his hometown. He's been to more high school football games than anyone ever - we need more fans like him!
You are correct BBQ ...
1969 champs were Reidsville, Elizabeth City and East Rowan
1970 champs were Reidsville, 71st and Shelby
1964 was the year Thomasville won the WNCHSAA championship. Many folks old enough to know still think that was the best Thomasville team of all time. I count myself among them.
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