To the NCHSAA, an open letter.

[72 State Champion]

An open letter to the NCHSAA- The 2017 realignment and playoff format forces the renewed discussion of what constitutes a true State Champion and what is now simply the flavor of the month. The history of North Carolina High School football playoffs is riddled with inconsistencies, adjustments, rival associations, AP votes, regionals, split classifications, field reductions, MAXPREPS rankings and now byes, which historically constituted a variety of methods to win all your playoff games yet still not qualify by NCHSAA standards as a State Champion. Is a 2017 4A-AA or1A-AA State Champion more or less valid than a State Champion from previous years that never received the reduced field and bye and therefore the easier and protected path to a title? It is odd that the NCHSAA would sacrifice the gates of games in order to provide byes to supposedly the better programs in 4A and 1A because of the reduction in overall number of teams. None of this had to occur.
Last off season when this playoff format was set, it was upsetting, yet got lost at the time in the shuffle. Now that playoff time is here, it is overwhelmingly evident that once again the NCHSAA failed to provide a common sense approach to the playoffs.
We choose now not to discuss the absurdity of the current seedings and byes, as the bigger and more important issue for some of us is the fact that the ever-changing playoff format produces different opportunities for different programs to make it to the top.
Therefore, our claim has always been that regardless of Association massages of the playoff formats and whose title means more than whose, is to once again advocate that any title in any association in any classification and any subclassification in any year since football began in North Carolina is to be correctly termed a "State Championship" It was as far as the team could go. Period.
And who, other than the teams snubbed, really cares anyway.
It is past time for the current unified NCHSAA/WNCHSAA to declare and reference ALL CHAMPIONSHIPS WON IN THIS STATE AS "STATE" CHAMPIONSHIPS.

 

[ReidsvilleRam90]

I guess the mule is getting under your skin.

Seems you are discussing two issues at once.

You got what you wanted. Shelby is 2AA and Reidsville 2A.

 

[beamer24]

LOL

 

[redraider73]

Preach on 72. Amen brother, you are 100% correct in your letter.

 

[Frank Lost Password]

I hope people can see what this post is really all about.

 

[ImaCrestFan]

I hope people can see what this post is really all about.

Oh, yeah. A Shelby fan trying to claim NC state football titles that they didn't win. It must kill them that Reidsvilles state titles are bona fide championships.

 

[Blue and Gold22]

I have called for a hunger strike on the 4a board until this travesty is over turned. No justice, No Wings!!

 

[Blue and Gold22]

I also demand the NCHSAA overturn Shelby's two losses this year. I have read 72's explination for the losses and it seems that they played poorly and the results were much closer than the actual scores.

I believe they greatest football dynasty on the planet deserves justice!! 11-0!!!!

 

[thekidd12]

I have called for a hunger strike on the 4a board until this travesty is over turned. No justice, No Wings!!

Dude it's on all the boards!

If everybody heeds your call there are going to be a lot of mad chicken farmers across the state.

 

[beamer24]

We're not gonna take, no we gonna take it!

 

[Blue and Gold22]

I think there may be away to end this true injustices without hurting the chicken farmers.

I propose a day without Shelby Golden Lion fans. They should go on strike for a day and bring this country to its knees!! Maybe a Golden Lion March on Raliegh!!

ROARRRRRRRRRRR!!

 

[TGT]

Did you actually send a letter to NCHSAA or are you just airing out on N.C. Preps forum?

As for Reidsville, the NCHSAA doesn't recognize three of the titles (record book has them with 16 instead of 19). Regional titles, they say. Injustice.

72, I agree with you that as long as a team wins the final playoff game the association allows, it's a state title!

 

[Ram2012]

Mule has made someone hit the #PanicButton

 

[coondog8585]

35 to 15 72 state champion still don't change it. LOL

 

[TheMule]

Did you actually send a letter to NCHSAA or are you just airing out on N.C. Preps forum?

As for Reidsville, the NCHSAA doesn't recognize three of the titles (record book has them with 16 instead of 19). Regional titles, they say. Injustice.

72, I agree with you that as long as a team wins the final playoff game the association allows, it's a state title!

Ugh, TGT, you do realize some of the WNCHSAA "Titles" were won by playing only ONE conference playoff game?

I realize Champ 98/72/XX is upset because the Golden Lions were royally screwed by losing to South Point and having to play at South Point again a week from this Friday, thus being probably eliminated in their remarkable run for five consecutive real State Championships.

And yes, the seeding process is totally insane. Here we have a pathetic Graham team seeded much higher in 2A than Shelby is in 2AA. And there is no way any sane person can spin this as anything remotely fair to all the teams in the state.

So, lets cut our buddy Champ a little slack. The stress levels must be unreal.

 

[Wizard of the East]

I've said for years I'd have the Mule and TGT set up the playoffs and be completely satisfied

 

[seadog28]

To all ncprep posters and readers, This insane moment has been brought to you by the Mighty Red Raiders! ROTFLMAO!!

 

[Ram2012]

Well spoken Mule! The letter is legitimate in many eyes but also comes out of desperation because the highway he travels next Friday has a sign that states, “DeadEnd”

 

[TGT]

Ugh, TGT, you do realize some of the WNCHSAA "Titles" were won by playing only ONE conference playoff game?

.

I did the research a few years ago. When Reidsville won the Western State titles in 1969 and 1970, there were a similar number of teams in the WNCHSAA as there were in the 3-A Western half of the NCHSAA. I'm pretty sure both Shelby and Reidsville won three playoff games in the championship season of 1970.

 

[TheMule]

I did the research a few years ago. When Reidsville won the Western State titles in 1969 and 1970, there were a similar number of teams in the WNCHSAA as there were in the 3-A Western half of the NCHSAA. I'm pretty sure both Shelby and Reidsville won three playoff games in the championship season of 1970.

Check out ALL of the years the WNCHSAA played for "Titles".

 

[GoNtheDistance]

Shelby hasn’t lost at all. The scoreboard just lies sometimes.

 

[Shotgun-Spread]

He is going to be whining for a long time while Reidsville wins small 2A titles and eventually when we head down to 1AA and it’s gone get real ugly then

 

[Realville Shelby]

Check out ALL of the years the WNCHSAA played for "Titles".

Neither association had the totality of the states teams in them. So if you don't count one you shouldn't count the other since they didn't play against all. You can call it a state title but if all teams were not in the same pool then it's not a state title. All the moaning and whining in the world won't change that.

 

[btango]

The Western North Carolina High School Activities Association ceased operation at the end of the 1976-77 school year.

"The Association" closed out with four conferences made up of 38 schools located in 13 counties.

Alexander (1 school in the county), Cabarrus (2 of 5 schools in the county), Caldwell (all 3), Cleveland (all 4), Davidson (3 of 8), Davie (1), Gaston (5 of 7), Iredell (all 5), Randolph (2 of 5), Rowan (all 5), Rutherford (all 3), Stanly (2 of 4), Watauga (1), and Wilkes (1 of 4). Total number of schools in the counties may be off but I think I am correct.

For the three round playoff eight teams from six counties qualified.

Southwestern Conference: Shelby (Cleveland) and Chase (Rutherford).
South Point and those two teams ended in a three way tie.

Northwestern Conference: Hudson (Caldwell) and Alexander Central.

South Piedmont Conference: Lexington (Davidson) and Thomasville (Davidson).
Lexington closed out an undefeated regular season beating Thomasville but I think by some playoff fluke the first round playoff game was played at Thomasville.

North Piedmont Conference: South Rowan and North Davidson.

Shelby may have been the best team in NC for 3A size schools. I do not think there was very much cross scheduling of the top teams.

The NCHSAA had teams representing 93 of the counties. The state championship games for 1976 matched teams from eight counties that represented an east and west champion.

1A state champion Robbinsville over Princeton.
2A state champion Franklin over Erwin (Harnett County consolidated into Triton in 1985).
3A state champion Canton Pisgah over Clinton. Won at Havelock in 1975.
4A state champion HP Andrews over Richmond County (fifth year since consolidation).

At the time there were 98 3A schools in NC with 2A right at the same.
16 teams made the 2A and 3A four round playoff. All conference champions qualified. A few second place teams qualified each year based on a conference rotation.

4A had close to 70 schools (cannot remember exact number) and 1A just short of 40.
1A played a three round playoff like the Western NCHSAA.

 

[Lincolnton]

WNCHSAA: Western North Carolina High School Activities Association

 

[ReidsvilleRam90]

I think that the next championship you win is far more important than a past championship.

 

[TheMule]

The Western North Carolina High School Activities Association ceased operation at the end of the 1976-77 school year.

"The Association" closed out with four conferences made up of 38 schools located in 13 counties.

Alexander (1 school in the county), Cabarrus (2 of 5 schools in the county), Caldwell (all 3), Cleveland (all 4), Davidson (3 of 8), Davie (1), Gaston (5 of 7), Iredell (all 5), Randolph (2 of 5), Rowan (all 5), Rutherford (all 3), Stanly (2 of 4), Watauga (1), and Wilkes (1 of 4). Total number of schools in the counties may be off but I think I am correct.

For the three round playoff eight teams from six counties qualified.

Southwestern Conference: Shelby (Cleveland) and Chase (Rutherford).
South Point and those two teams ended in a three way tie.

Northwestern Conference: Hudson (Caldwell) and Alexander Central.

South Piedmont Conference: Lexington (Davidson) and Thomasville (Davidson).
Lexington closed out an undefeated regular season beating Thomasville but I think by some playoff fluke the first round playoff game was played at Thomasville.

North Piedmont Conference: South Rowan and North Davidson.

Shelby may have been the best team in NC for 3A size schools. I do not think there was very much cross scheduling of the top teams.

The NCHSAA had teams representing 93 of the counties. The state championship games for 1976 matched teams from eight counties that represented an east and west champion.

1A state champion Robbinsville over Princeton.
2A state champion Franklin over Erwin (Harnett County consolidated into Triton in 1985).
3A state champion Canton Pisgah over Clinton. Won at Havelock in 1975.
4A state champion HP Andrews over Richmond County (fifth year since consolidation).

At the time there were 98 3A schools in NC with 2A right at the same.
16 teams made the 2A and 3A four round playoff. All conference champions qualified. A few second place teams qualified each year based on a conference rotation.

4A had close to 70 schools (cannot remember exact number) and 1A just short of 40.
1A played a three round playoff like the Western NCHSAA.

Just to note that there are 100 counties in North Carolina. That means when the WNCHSAA ceased to exist in 1976, the NCHSAA had teams in 93 counties, the WNCHSAA had teams in 13 counties. Ten counties had teams in both.

The NCHSAA had teams from the coast to the mountains. The WNCHSAA was a regional association. It simply defies belief that any regional association could claim to be state champions when they choose to remain regional and not compete state wide.

No one is questioning the greatness of many football programs in the WNCHSAA. I saw many of them from Shelby to Thomasville play in the 1950's and 1960's.

And the WNCHSAA had many fewer teams in earlier decades.

 

[TGT]

If you win the last game your association allows, you're a champion. Simple as that. Anything less is a slap in the face to those student-athletes who were on those teams. They couldn't help it that they had morons in charge.

Note: A slap in the face would have been easier with the kids who played without facemasks.

 

[TheMule]

If you win the last game your association allows, you're a champion. Simple as that. Anything less is a slap in the face to those student-athletes who were on those teams. They couldn't help it that they had morons in charge.

Note: A slap in the face would have been easier with the kids who played without facemasks.

Correct. The winners of the WNCHSAA were champions of their association. I assume you are referring to the morons in the WNCHSAA who refused to join the NCHSAA prior to 1976.

 

[TGT]

Correct. The winners of the WNCHSAA were champions of their association. I assume you are referring to the morons in the WNCHSAA who refused to join the NCHSAA prior to 1976.

Must have been some politics involved.

 

[Lincolnton]

Guys, it's been a long time since the WNCHSAA but there were some good teams in it. It was some tough football. As best as I can remember, most teams had the status of 3A. It covered an area from maybe Stanly County to Watauga County. and from Davidson County to Rutherford County and some of the better teams that were in between. The four conferences I remember most were the Northwestern, Southwestern, North and South Piedmont.

Seems like I had heard that back before my time, some of the championship games were by invitation and this was why the WNCHSAA was founded. Some of the better teams believed they were not being given the consideration they should have so they made a league of their own.

In the 1960's it wasn't unusual for Lincolnton to have one of the Mecklenburg County schools on it's schedule, like West Mecklenburg or Independence, and if I'm thinking right, we won as many or maybe more than we lost, to them.

All we can do now is speculate but I'm positive they could have competed with teams across the state, especially schools of comparable size. Several of these teams have won titles since coming to the NCHSAA.

I suppose there will always be a debate about where the best teams are concentrated, buy hey, it makes for good message board talk.

 

[72 State Champion]

After giving this thread a few days for responses, we will now address some of your questions.
This topic has absolutely nothing to do with the current 2A battles between Shelby and Belmont South Point. In fact, the matter goes back over 100 years to when governing bodies of NC public high school football were being formed. Since then, playoff formats have changed and evolved as numbers of schools changed, sizes changed, rival associations emerged as did classifications, segregation existed, then integration, subclasses were determined, and now byes and outside rankings are introduced. And at all times, Championships were earned.
This letter is an appeal to the current, fully representative NCHSAA to fairly and correctly communicate ALL championship history that occurred during this constant change and evolution. This year for the first time, byes are introduced, but only for 1A and 4A, both with less total teams involved than 2A and 3A. Will that constitute a historic asterisk for those titles as more easily earned than previous years? Why not? They are. Less teams. Less playoff rounds. Wasn't that the weak excuse at one time for "regionalizing" the WNCHSAA titles?
It is past time to reference ALL STATE TITLES THE SAME.
We have written several times to the current NCHSAA. Their one and only written response failed to address the core issue. They then invited us to arrange a telephone discussion, of which they have not cooperated or responded to have dispite multiple attempts by us. Thus we are on here. And all boards as teams from all classes are former Champions. As you have seen, we do have the support of others, including Belmont South Point.
Comically, the open letter (part 2) was hilarious. We have a good time laughing at ourselves so kudos to GoNtheDistance for keeping life fun and funny.
With that said, this topic of how titles are represented is probably only serious to those of us that actually were part of winning titles as part of the WNCHSAA. For 46 years, there were other NC public high school programs winning association championships other than the ones governed by the one named NCHSAA. The NCHSAA was NOT a superior governing body to the others. It was larger geographically and in number of programs, but it had a very large hole in it smack in the middle of the state of as many as 42 3A schools. The gap only involved 3A level programs. Despite btango's attempt to cloud the issue (for reasons only known to him), none of 1A, 2A, or 4A, at the time were involved, however some WNCHSAA former members have gone on to perform in all 4 classifications since the merger. That is another reason why it is important to be represented fairly and accurately. The western located NCHSAA teams often had to drive past some of the WNCHSAA schools to play their games. As mentioned, some counties had schools from both associations. There was some interplay, but no playoff meetings. How can one be deemed supreme over the other? And time has proven the quality of play in the WNCHSAA was certainly equal, if not better.
46 years, and those Championship teams need to be designated "State Champions".
It is especially important in the media hype days that we live in, that all pertinent history related to a program's performance be fairly represented. When the media goes to the current unified NCHSAA for information on any program, including those fortunate enough to make the current championship games, that is not happening.
The current merged NCHSAA consistently only recognizes pre-merger (1977) "state" championships from THEIR Association (or what was known as NCHSAA) dating back to it's origin. In other words, any other Association championships are not stated or provided as part of that program's resume. That is wrong because the current unified NCHSAA is the sole provider of that information today. The fact is that they either misrepresent the WNCHSAA championships as somehow not as valid, or move to hide or ignore them in some way, or just not give all the information. Why would they not just state "in the history of this program, they have won X "state championships". By including pre-merger NCHSAA titles in their summaries while excluding pre-merger WNCHSAA titles, an inaccurate arrogant superiority is implied, whether it is intended or not.
If the NCHSAA wants to live up to its stated Core Values and Beliefs of Sportsmanship, Integrity, Fair Play, Honesty, Respect, Equity, and Fair Competition, this needs to be correctly represented. There WERE TWO SEPARATE 3A "State Champions" in NC from 1930 to 1976.
And what is most puzzling is that this is a win win. Why oppose it? Who gets hurt?
Make the change.

 

[TGT]

Thanks 72 ... please also note that there were three separate state champions in the years the NCHSAA -- for some foolish reason --didn't allow the East and West champions to play one more week. Reidsville was involved in those in 1963, 1969 and 1970 - none recognized in the NCHSAA record book.
As I've stated many times, any team that wins the final playoff game their governing body allows is a state champion and should be included in the records.
There have always been multiple divisions, including 8 now. Those eight separate divisions are made up by teams with similar ADMs.

 

[72 State Champion]

Thanks TGT.
You absolutely should count those 3 as State Championships.
Why do people oppose us?
Why do they even care?

 

[ocdavis31]

Additionally, for the vast majority of the years prior to 1976, there were segregated black schools that were pretty powerful in athletics. I'm pretty sure that there were many years that Church Street School would have spanked Thomasville's rear end. Not to mention the years that the high school team from Baptist Children's Home actually did kick our tails.
I mention the above only to say that the NCHSAA has never really been the end all, be all for high school football in North Carolina. Not recognizing the WNCHSAA champs is like saying that there were no NCAA national champs in football before the BCS.

 

[TGT]

Additionally, for the vast majority of the years prior to 1976, there were segregated black schools that were pretty powerful in athletics. I'm pretty sure that there were many years that Church Street School would have spanked Thomasville's rear end. Not to mention the years that the high school team from Baptist Children's Home actually did kick our tails.
I mention the above only to say that the NCHSAA has never really been the end all, be all for high school football in North Carolina. Not recognizing the WNCHSAA champs is like saying that there were no NCAA national champs in football before the BCS.

And there's also the consolidated question ... For example, Wentworth, Ruffin and Bethany high schools merged into Rockingham County High in 1976. Madison-Mayodan won a basketball title in the 70s before the school moved and was renamed McMichael. Should the Wentworth and M-M basketball titles count for Rockingham and McMichael in the record books?
There are many, many more examples of that scenario all over the state.

 

[72 State Champion]

Thanks OC.
Unfortunately, the current NCHSAA is the be all, end all for all of today's NC public schools. Only the NC private high schools have different governing bodies.
The NCHSAA is the only official source for info to the member schools and the public or media. And they posses the records of the other public school associations that once existed. That is why it is critical that they accurately and fairly provide ALL pertinent info on their members'.

 

[72 State Champion]

TGT
Consolidation is a different animal.
Of course the communities can and should recognize the prior accomplishments of the former schools that came together.
But moving forward, the dynamics will have changed so as not to allow the new entity to claim pre merger records as part of their's now. It would also skew the numbers if drawing from several previous schools all get added into one.
It's not the same school.
Racial integration, while certainly impacting athletic programs, has historically not been used the same as consolidation to define a new entity. Generally, the black students were merged in with the white students of roughly the same district. Existing school facilities were used of both for a while.

 

[TGT]

Correct ... good points although I'm sure there are some of the old schools combined by integration became new schools with compass point names.

One has to wonder where those old state championship trophies and banners from the long lost schools ended up?

 

[rambbq]

TGT...look what happened to Durham High School.....no longer exists and they won a bunch of titles in several sports over the decades....can't remember exact yr they closed but I think it was late 80's or early 90's....wonder where their hardware went..............ok....i looked up Durhams last football season was 1994...they went 9-3 and lost a round playoff game to DH Conley...end to a glorious program........................