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Non-traditional schools gotta go!

Mont1963

Mont1963

Well-Known Member
Gold Member
Dec 10, 2013
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1A schools are at a clear disadvantage with this current system. You can not look me in the eye with a straight face and tell me that a WS Prep or Bishop McGuiness does not have a CLEAR HUGE advantage over Cherokee ( who draws from 300+ students) or Andrews (250+ students) or Hayesville (375+ students).

I don't have a problem with non-traditional schools having a team. They just need to have their own association like the Private schools do!!!

If this continues, I look for the smaller 1A schools to form their own association and leave the NCHSAA!!!!

This post was edited on 1/7 6:24 PM by Mont1963
 
See you are upset about this now but wait until this year when the Midwest and west pods are gone and you get to face these schools in the 1st and second rd. The Midwest pod is brutal and now that it is gone, just happy to share the wealth.
 
Nothing will ever be done until they start winning football titles. Traditional schools will never give up all other Nchsaa sports championships to have a level playing field in basketball.
 
I don't understand what the problem is. Non-traditional schools do not have advantages that other schools have. Unlike ALL traditional schools, MOST(maybe all) students who play a sport must maintain a 2.8 or 3.0 GPA just to play. Plus, ALL the non traditional schools are already college preparatory which means rigorous academic settings. So, before you start belittling the non traditional schools for whatever (ridiculous because ALL non traditional schools have lotteries that are monitored by the Charter association and the state) understand why these kids are attending non traditional schools in the first place. Also, most of these non traditional schools only enroll less than 300 in their high schools to start with....So, where is the advantage? I don't get it. Maybe its time for traditional schools to step up and start requiring a minimum GPA instead of pass 3 per semester or 6 or 8 per year. Maybe its time for traditional schools to start hiring quality coaches that coach the game year round instead of 3 months. Maybe its time for traditional schools to stop crying and get better all around.
 
Ok Trojan let's break this down. Wsp has below ac great scores across the board compared to all other hs, I believe. In addition academics first? Maybe for some but these some traditionally aren't your preps or Atkins, etc. Additionally it shows what you really know about small 1a rural traditional schools. 95% of these student athletes are 3 sport players. Therefore it's tough to have them training all year round for 1 sport. MAYBE some of these schools need to improve their lottery system, if you want to call it that. We are talking about schools in the middle of a metro that's hundreds of thousands of people compared to your avg rural community with your avg traditional of 10,000 total people. So yes preps and those types of schools do have a competitive advantage. You all should be in 2a minimal.
 
Mont 1963 brings up a topic with a lot of original points that have never been discussed on this board. I think it will cause people on both sides to totally rethink their views on it. You need to make the NCHSAA aware that this is an issue. I imagine they have not heard about it and once they do, they will act quickly to rectify it.

This post was edited on 1/8 6:43 AM by Dosso
 
Originally posted by Dosso:
Mont 1963 brings up a topic with a lot of original points that have never been discussed on this board. I think it will cause people on both sides to totally rethink their views on it. You need to make the NCHSAA aware that this is an issue. I imagine they have not heard about it and once they do, they will act quickly to rectify it.


This post was edited on 1/8 6:43 AM by Dosso
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Lol.
 
Originally posted by gal durnit:
Originally posted by Dosso:
Mont 1963 brings up a topic with a lot of original points that have never been discussed on this board. I think it will cause people on both sides to totally rethink their views on it. You need to make the NCHSAA aware that this is an issue. I imagine they have not heard about it and once they do, they will act quickly to rectify it.


This post was edited on 1/8 6:43 AM by Dosso
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Lol.
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I seriously doubt gal will be posting "lol" when these "non-traditional" schools take over 1A football. It's just a matter of time... LOL.
 
Ain't but one wat to fix it . PULL OUT of the NCHSAA. Let WS Preppies and Bishop fight it out each year among themselves.

Lol
 
Mont 1963- pulling out of the NCHSAA is an idea that has not been brought up before on this board. And I think it will be easy to pull off. I honestly think that if you start a ncpreps sponosored petition, and you can get enough posters on the 1A message board to sign it, and you present it at the Annual NC Superintendents Conference, they will have no choice but to submit to the will of the lobbying efforts of "Big Post." The1A's will pull out and pool all of their money to pay for running their own state athletic association and all that goes with it. It should be quite simple to pull off. I imagine the school systems have just never given it any consideration. You go boy!
 
Originally posted by TrojanGreen23:

I don't understand what the problem is. Non-traditional schools do not have advantages that other schools have. Unlike ALL traditional schools, MOST(maybe all) students who play a sport must maintain a 2.8 or 3.0 GPA just to play. Plus, ALL the non traditional schools are already college preparatory which means rigorous academic settings. So, before you start belittling the non traditional schools for whatever (ridiculous because ALL non traditional schools have lotteries that are monitored by the Charter association and the state) understand why these kids are attending non traditional schools in the first place. Also, most of these non traditional schools only enroll less than 300 in their high schools to start with....So, where is the advantage? I don't get it. Maybe its time for traditional schools to step up and start requiring a minimum GPA instead of pass 3 per semester or 6 or 8 per year. Maybe its time for traditional schools to start hiring quality coaches that coach the game year round instead of 3 months. Maybe its time for traditional schools to stop crying and get better all around.
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You hit the nail on the head with the " MOST (maybe all) students who play a sport must maintain a 2.8 or 3.0 GPA just to play." part of your post . That is optional and a decision made by the individual school. I agree that grades should be kept up but it is the fact that The NCHSAA mandates the residency requirements for Traditional Schools while allowing Charter/Magnet Schools to forego that requirement . What you are talking about is a rule implemented by the school and saying "most, if not all", proves there is a possibility of stretching that requirement . The lottery part of the system is another fallacy that is easily manipulated . The idea that traditional schools should now conform to a system that charter schools use is laughable. How about the relatively new charter schools (compared to traditional schools) enter the system and play by the rules everyone else already plays by .
 
Originally posted by TrojanGreen23:

I don't understand what the problem is. Non-traditional schools do not have advantages that other schools have. Unlike ALL traditional schools, MOST(maybe all) students who play a sport must maintain a 2.8 or 3.0 GPA just to play. Plus, ALL the non traditional schools are already college preparatory which means rigorous academic settings. So, before you start belittling the non traditional schools for whatever (ridiculous because ALL non traditional schools have lotteries that are monitored by the Charter association and the state) understand why these kids are attending non traditional schools in the first place. Also, most of these non traditional schools only enroll less than 300 in their high schools to start with....So, where is the advantage? I don't get it. Maybe its time for traditional schools to step up and start requiring a minimum GPA instead of pass 3 per semester or 6 or 8 per year. Maybe its time for traditional schools to start hiring quality coaches that coach the game year round instead of 3 months. Maybe its time for traditional schools to stop crying and get better all around.
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One of the dumbest post ever.
 
Originally posted by Fourth'n'Inches:

Originally posted by gal durnit:

Originally posted by Dosso:
Mont 1963 brings up a topic with a lot of original points that have never been discussed on this board. I think it will cause people on both sides to totally rethink their views on it. You need to make the NCHSAA aware that this is an issue. I imagine they have not heard about it and once they do, they will act quickly to rectify it.



This post was edited on 1/8 6:43 AM by Dosso
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Lol.
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I seriously doubt gal will be posting "lol" when these "non-traditional" schools take over 1A football. It's just a matter of time... LOL.
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Fourth,

I was laughing at the fact that this thing has been beat to death and it was brought up yet again. And I was one of the first on here to say that NOTHING will change until the Day's and the Prep's of the world win a football title. Then all hell will break loose.

The thing in basketball is some traditional schools have been very competitive against the Bishops and Preps. Cherokee has had several chances at Bishop and came up just short. I could be wrong but hasn't Bishop only won their conference outright a few times in the last 10 years? They play well when it matters most and that coupled with thier talent pool increases their chances of winning the tough games in the later stages of the playoffs. I am not syaing it is fair at all, and in fact they will tell you it is an advantage. Should they stop the athletic program because the system is flawed? Heck no. Anyone of yall would have the same perspective they do if your school was in their shoes. No rules are being broken in a very flawed system. It is silly for people to bash the schools when it is the Association who has made the decision.
 
I don't feel like it's a Dumb post at all. Most of Us feel that Fairness is the right way to go, but most of Us don't have the courage to post it. 1a basketball Playoffs used to rival that of the 1a Football Playoffs. Well, at least the Excitement did
 
Originally posted by TrojanGreen23:

I don't understand what the problem is. Non-traditional schools do not have advantages that other schools have. Unlike ALL traditional schools, MOST(maybe all) students who play a sport must maintain a 2.8 or 3.0 GPA just to play. Plus, ALL the non traditional schools are already college preparatory which means rigorous academic settings. So, before you start belittling the non traditional schools for whatever (ridiculous because ALL non traditional schools have lotteries that are monitored by the Charter association and the state) understand why these kids are attending non traditional schools in the first place. Also, most of these non traditional schools only enroll less than 300 in their high schools to start with....So, where is the advantage? I don't get it. Maybe its time for traditional schools to step up and start requiring a minimum GPA instead of pass 3 per semester or 6 or 8 per year. Maybe its time for traditional schools to start hiring quality coaches that coach the game year round instead of 3 months. Maybe its time for traditional schools to stop crying and get better all around.
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Trojan,

You obviously dont have a clue about what is going on. First off if you did, then explain how a public school can hire coaches that coach all year round for each individual sport? Have you seen what the public school's have to work with financially? They can barely afford teachers and to buy food for student lunches. Traditional schools are also limited on funding they are awarded from the state on what they can spend it on, where as Charter's and othe non-traditional schools don't have the same restrictions and can allocate funding more generally to the areas they determine are needed. Yes the schools you mention have low student enrollment but their pool from where they can draw and their enrollment criteria geographically is not as restricted as traditional schools. If the parents can afford it and the students can make the grades then they can go to the school by choice. The schools you talk about do have very stringent academics, less restricted funding allocations, and an added bonus is their athletic programs are supported by more money for coaches, etc. All these things are great. All these things are not luxuries that traditional public schools are afforded. Most of these schools don't have boundaries and are close to larger populated areas. Again luxuries that traditional 1A schools are not afforded. Like I have said many times, absolutely no rules are being broken within the current system. But to say it is not flawed. To say that there is not an unfair advantage for these schools over traditional 1A schools. To say stupid crap like stop crying and get better all around. You obviously are clueless to the real issues.
 
Not clueless or anything...just tired of the constant complaining and crying. Most if not all non and traditional schools are working hard and have limits placed upon them that bigger private and traditional schools don't have. Every small school will have limited $$ for various things but instead of complaining some schools resolve matters by working harder and smarter to avoid smaller let downs. With the exception of a few schools, there are no advantages of non-traditional schools over traditional schools at all. You argue over the boundaries are not limited so everyone can come in. Seriously?? Do you really think that a kid who has amazing talent is going to choose to play at a non traditional school, maintain a 3.0 GPA, oh and play at the powerhouse level 1A?? For what? The exposure?? You are sadly mistaken once again. Once again, you let a couple of institutions flaw the entire bunch. I guess the 365 day rule was implemented because of non-traditional schools as well? I can tell you NOT. It was implemented because of traditional schools recruit players from other schools and promise them the world. You would see a kid start for a conference team one year and another the next. That was in traditional schools all the time. I'm all for dropping teams from the NCHSAA that doesn't comply with the rules; however, I'm not in the business of telling a Charter or prep school (both of whom are public by the way) that they don't belong because of the crying of people who complain about things not going their way.
 
Originally posted by TrojanGreen23:
Not clueless or anything...just tired of the constant complaining and crying. Most if not all non and traditional schools are working hard and have limits placed upon them that bigger private and traditional schools don't have. Every small school will have limited $$ for various things but instead of complaining some schools resolve matters by working harder and smarter to avoid smaller let downs. With the exception of a few schools, there are no advantages of non-traditional schools over traditional schools at all. You argue over the boundaries are not limited so everyone can come in. Seriously?? Do you really think that a kid who has amazing talent is going to choose to play at a non traditional school, maintain a 3.0 GPA, oh and play at the powerhouse level 1A?? For what? The exposure?? You are sadly mistaken once again. Once again, you let a couple of institutions flaw the entire bunch. I guess the 365 day rule was implemented because of non-traditional schools as well? I can tell you NOT. It was implemented because of traditional schools recruit players from other schools and promise them the world. You would see a kid start for a conference team one year and another the next. That was in traditional schools all the time. I'm all for dropping teams from the NCHSAA that doesn't comply with the rules; however, I'm not in the business of telling a Charter or prep school (both of whom are public by the way) that they don't belong because of the crying of people who complain about things not going their way.
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Wow! Green23 you are a miracle worker! You have gotten BK and gal to agree, you have both traditional school supporters and non-traditional supporters agreeing that you are out of line. What does that mean when everyone agrees?
 
This fight comes up every year in the NCHSAA. WS Prep will always be as good as they are because Forsyth County has open enrollment, which means they can pull from all over that county. Bishop McGuinness can only pull from 25 miles outside their school zone, only problem there is most Catholic kids and private schools they pull from are in that radius. A few years ago Bishop girls basketball team appealed to move to 2A for a more level playing field, but the state denied the request. I was a coach this past fall for a NCHSAA 1A school, and saw first hand how it all works. Its tough on the smaller schools who don't have the funding. Bishop gets a lot of funding from private donations and the Catholic Church, and is one of only 3 NCHSAA schools that charge tuition (The other 2 are 4A I believe). I will say that Bishop has made efforts to move, but it is up to the NCHSAA to make a change, which Mr Whitehead has failed to do.
 
TG is comparing apples and oranges and trying to make them both bananas. Still he doesn't get it. 365 rule has nothing to do with how charters and other non-traditonal schools are allowed to spend state funds vs. how public schools can spend them. Also you are crazy to think that if a family can afford to or a high achieving student athlete can make the grades to get them into a college prep trype school with the added advantage of playing on elite teams then they wouldn't take that opportunity. I know I would. Public school shave to work with what they have plain and simple. No one is crying about it that I have seen, well maybe some are crying but your agruments dont hold water. If you boil it all down, it is like asking pro teams with a very low payroll and zero free agent possabilities to compete with a team that has a very high payroll with the ability to draw the best and brightest stars. Every now and then a small market team will get hot and come through and knock off the more well endowed club but more often than no the team with those types of advantages wins out as they should. That is not a level playing field. A level playing field would be too let the Day's and Prep's of the world have their own division seperate from the traditonal schools, or the multiplier rule, etc. Again this whole thing has been beat to death and it isn't the fault of the schools but when some moron gets on here pretty much saying there is no advantage and you just need to step your game up, they need to be called out.
 
Nobody in 2a wants them here either. So you will never get the numbers needed to overturn it. 2A and 3A will not vote to bump them up. They will keep all the craziness that happens at charters, magnets and privates in the smallest league. well except for the two schools in 4a. but heck Cardinal Gibbons just moved up because they won every team state championship in the fall but football. but they don't have an advantage its just luck.
 
I just want everyone to know that this TrojanGreen23 is not a representative of the fine traditional rural school that I support which happens to be the Alleghany Trojans. If he is going to make these kind of ludicrous claims, I want it made clear that he is not one of ours.
 
Originally posted by Alleghany84:
I just want everyone to know that this TrojanGreen23 is not a representative of the fine traditional rural school that I support which happens to be the Alleghany Trojans. If he is going to make these kind of ludicrous claims, I want it made clear that he is not one of ours.
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He is just a left over fruit cake the from the Holidays ! LOL
 
Originally posted by Dosso:
Mont 1963- pulling out of the NCHSAA is an idea that has not been brought up before on this board. And I think it will be easy to pull off. I honestly think that if you start a ncpreps sponosored petition, and you can get enough posters on the 1A message board to sign it, and you present it at the Annual NC Superintendents Conference, they will have no choice but to submit to the will of the lobbying efforts of "Big Post." The1A's will pull out and pool all of their money to pay for running their own state athletic association and all that goes with it. It should be quite simple to pull off. I imagine the school systems have just never given it any consideration. You go boy!
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Dosso- I know you enjoy making light of the situation at hand. Funny guy. But, the reality of some of the 1A schools leaving the NCHSAA and forming their own Association may not be that far fetched. With the current state of things at the 1A level and the many grumblings going on around the state I could see something like this happening. All it takes is one school to take that first leap and then you have a domino effect so to speak. Now I'm not saying every 1A school will jump on this band wagon and opt out of the NCHSAA, but I do honestly believe there are enough that would do it to make an impact at the 1A level. It's been done before... see below (courtesy NCHSAA).


Western North Carolina High School Activities Association

The Western North Carolina High School Activities Association was
founded on December 10, 1929. Charter members included Belmont, Concord,
Kings Mountain, Lexington, Lincolnton, Monroe, Newton, Mooresville,
Black Mountain, Cliffside, Hickory, Lenoir, Marion, Morganton, and
Rutherfordton-Spindale. The WNCHSAA grew to 42 members in four
conferences before it was dissolved in June of 1977 and its members
joined the NCHSAA.

Only three of the 42 members failed to win a Western title in some
sport during the WNCHSAA's existence. W.C. Clary served for many years
as executive director of the organization.

From 1930-1953, the WNCHSAA had two conferences, South Piedmont and
Western, and later there were four conferences. Playoffs were held in a
number of sports, including football, men's and women's basketball,
baseball, wrestling, track and field and other sports.

History of the NCHSAA
 
Dosso not very bright!!

A few years ago in Georgia, the charter schools were winning all the 1A championships and 38 schools came together and said we've had enough, we're forming our own association. The Georgia Legislature took notice and passed a law requiring charters to play UP a level. THAT SETTLED IT!

End of subject!
 
This discussion is certainly one that has shown that non-tradtional high schools have an advantage over the small boundary tradtional high schools. I was recently at a game in which there was a charter school playing. They were getting beat and I overheard the coach of the charter school say to another coach next to him, "We have got to do a better job recruiting for next year."

I would be for the boundary 1A schools to form their own association.
 
Originally posted by Mont1963:
Dosso not very bright!!

A few years ago in Georgia, the charter schools were winning all the 1A championships and 38 schools came together and said we've had enough, we're forming our own association. The Georgia Legislature took notice and passed a law requiring charters to play UP a level. THAT SETTLED IT!

End of subject!
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Not exactly. The split in GA was over private v. public, not charter v. "traditional." It was a completely different animal down there from even what we complain about here in NC. Imagine it more like having Christ School and Rabun Gap in the SMC.
 
The biggest deal when it comes to 1A schools like this usually comes back to what the Bishop girls have been doing the past 9 years. As much as people rag on them and say it isn't fair ( I don't totally agree with it either), you also have to look at what coach Robinson has done for that program. A lot to do with a teams success is on the coach, and he knows how to deliver year in and year out! He is a U17 USA girls assistant coach and has offers to coach in college if he wants to. Not very many schools can say that
 
Like stated before those who are from traditional 1a schools can bicker until we are blue. It has come a point where it is beating a dead horse. I am all for these non traditional as they are called to move up a class size. Very good point on football which is becoming more and more clear as I look at the playoff picture. Teams like Thomas Jefferson were complete laughing stocks in both sports. I remember them playing in a Christmas tourny in East Rutherford and they looked the band was trying to play basketball. Same goes for football, I seen SMC teams use them as a qualified practice game. But can't really say it anymore. They are becoming threats in both sports. These schools are getting better and unlike a traditional school I don't see down years coming on the horizon. I've read that an almost unanimus decision needs to be met for the NCSHAA or anything to change. If I'm not mistaken it was higher than 75%. We can argue but we need some more voice on this fight. I don't care what argument a non traditional can make, be ademics or coaching the numbers are not lying. These programs are turning around. Look at the Wacovia cups. Bishop is dominating in more facets of sports at this level than any traditional could make. They found a loop hole and are running with it. A United stand is the only thing stopping this. So this subject will be a hot buttoned issue for years and yes football will be the next thing up. So hold on tight SMC and other traditional conferences put the good fight. It only takes one stone to take down Goliath.
 
First of all, I was not making fun of the topic or anyone's opinion. What I was clearly poking fun at was Mont's being a few years late to the party. He made a couple of posts out of the blue where he was rehashing the topic as if it was the first time it had been brought up or discussed. I just thought it was presented funny on his part. And on the Georgia situation, I believe that was where all of the state private schools were playing with the public schools and no transfer rules. So that would be like having the Davidson Day and Charlotte Latin and Wesleyan folks and all of those schools playing 1A together. Those schools are not non-boarding parochial so they are not allowed into the NCHSAA like they are in most other state associations. Even the states with multipliers do not have transfer rules for the schools with multipliers. So again it is comparing apples and oranges. The whole seceding from the union idea is not going to happen in NC because Superintendents are not going to do it. However, what is going to happen is that there will very soon be enough charter schools that for 1A, the NCHSAA can and probably will make a separate playoffs for the 1A non-traditional schools. And that will indeed solve a great deal of the issue. Though Magnets like WS Prep will still be your problem to deal with because they are no different than the other Forsyth County Public Schools.
 
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