It's Time To Change The Process

[1whoknows]

So what is the answer? Everyone says it needs to change. How do we get these teams not to play each other in Round 1 and 2. You still must understand, football in your school is the money maker. Everyone wants a chance to when the state, but if you must travel 3 plus hours to play a game, just to satisfy this board, I hope STREAMING over the internet becomes HUGE!!! In Charlotte Meck these games do not get sold out round 1 or 2. When you move and INDY vs Butler game to Providence back in the day and still do not stop selling tickets, it is a problem.

I for a new process myself. Let's hear it.

 

[btango]

But the state makes too much off 8 sets of games. No way it will reduce to 6.

You are one of the ones that does not understand, the NCHSAA is not the one that determines if there are eight subdivisions. The schools/coaches voted it in and they can vote it out.

The issue with ADMs does not really bother me for any sport other than football. Look at who wins the state titles in many sports and the largest schools do not dominate it.

 

[shawn28364]

Didn't 71st just travel 3 plus hours to play a 3 win team? Who made $$ on that? I think the committee can just use some common sense and not get too technical with logistics. Meck Co is a different animal, so that might require burning a few light bulbs to figure out....but the rest is not hard at all....IF someone does not have their own agenda?.

 

[nepsy7]

West beat North Meck 14-13
North Meck lost 35-23 to Mallard creek butler lost by 13, west beat a team that lost by 12. So you can compare them, you don't have to agree with what I'm saying but statistically what I'm saying are facts, they are comparable.

Hey if you need to use stats to make yourself feel compatible go for it. Imo WF would not come within 3 TD'S against Butler. Who cares? Seeding are not going to protect anyone from a Team that comes to your House and smashes you.

 

[gotoblueg]

Tommy

Bottom line is to win all your conference games. This process is no difference it might have been in the old days. In the old days the number 1 seed played say the number 3 seed in another conference. You knew who that was, but if say MC became the #3 seed and the Meck Conference was paired with EF conference, then they could have met in first round.

Believe me, In 1992 we lost one game and became a number 3 seed and went on road and wore everyone out on route to state champs. And we were runner up the previous season.

One year Cummings had to forfeit all their non conference games -0-6 and they won the rest to when state.

This is no difference than back when Richmond and WC or INDY with knotts, were always going to be undefeated. Everyone waited on the draw to see who would have home field in the championship game.

It is no way to judge when EF conference is great. They beat Reagan, that almost pulled off K-town, West Forsyth did beat NM, so EF beat them and Page won, NW beat Garner and SouthWest blew out Wataga. These were all of EF opponents.

If you are good enough and the team to win it all, then win them all. You shouldn't just want the one team to beat. MC, Butler or Hough, which barely beat SM with a KOR, will come out of brackets. We will see if EF is there waiting and then you can go there and present your case.

Tom Knotts never complain, they just won 109 straight.

Tommy,one hell of coach

 

[ReidsvilleRam90]

I do not think it would only be up to football coaches. The 6a system would be all sports.

On seeding to avoid conference games...for example, if school a and b have the 12 and 13 spots. If it is a coin flip for 12th, I'm all for flip flopping 12 and 13 to avoid a rematch first round. If if A is a 12 seed outright, I would not change them to 13 simply to avoid rematch.

 

[ForsythFootball]

Hey if you need to use stats to make yourself feel compatible go for it. Imo WF would not come within 3 TD'S against Butler. Who cares? Seeding are not going to protect anyone from a Team that comes to your House and smashes you.

hey bud what's the point of this whole conversation, if seeds don't matter?

 

[btango]

I do not think it would only be up to football coaches. The 6a system would be all sports.

On seeding to avoid conference games...for example, if school a and b have the 12 and 13 spots. If it is a coin flip for 12th, I'm all for flip flopping 12 and 13 to avoid a rematch first round. If if A is a 12 seed outright, I would not change them to 13 simply to avoid rematch.

The last thing I want to see is watering down the playoffs in all the other sports like has happened in football. The basketball playoffs are excellent with four classifications and there have been years when smaller schools were the ones vying for titles.

I agree with four classic classifications. I do not like eight subdivisions. I think football should divide into six after the season using the ADMs like is currently used but 192 qualifying teams and not the current 256.

 

[Blue and Gold22]

West beat North Meck 14-13
North Meck lost 35-23 to Mallard creek butler lost by 13, west beat a team that lost by 12. So you can compare them, you don't have to agree with what I'm saying but statistically what I'm saying are facts, they are comparable.

Which is why statistics mean very little. West wins the game coming from behind and kicking a field goal to win on the last play of the game. Mallard creek/ NM game was largely over at half time. I believe it was 28-7 and they had seniors who had not played all year in the game in the 4th quarter .

Scores lie all the time and the fact that West nearly lost this game tells me all I need to know about them this year.

 

[nepsy7]

hey bud what's the point of this whole conversation, if seeds don't matter?

I have no problem with the seeding. I'm a Mallard Creek guy. We love traveling into hostile territory. This team plays better away than at home anyway. I was just commenting on the comparison between West Forsyth and Butler. Which i found hilarious. A few guys chimed in, and clarified the statement. All good here.

Play Ball!

 

[rshsgrad94]

It truly needs to go back to the way it was.
1A, 2A, 3A, 4A no splitting of classifications.

Back then you had a total of 8 sets of brackets, counting the East and West for each division. Now we are at 16 sets of brackets for all 8 divisions. I have NEVER ever liked the "watering down" of the playoff and championships as it is now. Think about the best 32 from 4A/4AA, you can apply the same principle with the other classifications... I think it was a little harder to complain about the match-ups back then due to the fact that you had to BATTLE to get into the playoffs, 3/4 losses in the regular season could mean you are sitting at home during the playoffs. Its supposed to be about the best of the best not "oh look lets lets EVERYONE get a shot at this" Yes I am aware that the biggest reason for the A/AA now is about more games, more revenue. But c'mon, are you really telling me there's NO other way to increase revenue and keep the games meaningful?

In regards to "top teams" in a West or East Bracket facing each other prior to the Semi-Final game... good luck, its been happening that way for years. However think about this..

4AA Schools in the Western Bracket. Year in and Year out since the splitting of classifications there has been an issue with volume of 4AA schools in the "Western Part of the State, or lets just say Guilford County and West of there" Take a look 75/80% (or so) of the schools that are always in the 4AA West Bracket are Meck County, and if not they are bordering that area. West of Charlotte and I mean like past 20/30 minutes West there are NO 4AA teams to pull into the Western Bracket. So yes, if you have 10 plus schools from the Char/Meck greater area in a 16 team bracket its going to create a mess with teams playing each other way too soon and or replays of prior games. The LACK of Western 4AA teams from Guilford County - west is a big reason that many years schools like Richmond and some others have been pulled into the Western Bracket.

NOW - go back to 4A - no more 4A/4AA and a Western Bracket will be more diverse maybe 40-50% teams from the Char Meck area... etc..

The subdividing created a huge mess in my opinion...

 

[rshsgrad94]

One other thing to add:

Per the 2017-2021 NCHSAA Realignment Classifications
20/30/30/20 Percent Modified Model

They are listing 78 4A Schools in NC from S Meck at 2970 ADM to Glenn at 1656

So with the subdivision of the playoffs the following happens:
4AA
East - 16 Teams
West - 16 Teams
4A
East - 16 Teams
West - 16 Teams

So a total of 64 teams in 4A/4AA now make the playoffs if that continues and this model holds up, then out of 78 eligible 4A teams 64 will make the playoffs and only 14 will be sitting at home?

If they were to go back to Single A and no more AA. Then 32 teams make the playoffs out of 78. To me that means the best of the best and that's the way it was and that's the way it should be.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

Saw this from somebody else and I strongly agree with it. I think under the new 20/30/30/20 system, the 4a and 1a playoffs should be divided as below.

32 teams are eligible for the playoffs. This gets rid of the pointless first round games for a lot of teams to play against the helpless 3 win team that doesn't deserve to be there any ways. You then divide into AA and A. 16 largest playoff qualifiers play in the AA bracket. 16 smallest qualifiers play in the A bracket. You then divide East and West (8 teams each). Frankly, the same faces will still be in the mix, but it makes sense given the smaller percentage of teams in the 4A and 1A classifications, both of which you find the largest disparity in enrollment numbers as shown above with South Meck and Glenn comparison.

Top 3 teams from each conference are playoff eligible. In the event the number of playoff eligible teams exceed 32 for the bracket, you start at the bottom and pull out the 3rd place finishers with the worst records.

 

[btango]

I prefer to see 1A and 4A not subdivide and go with the top 32 for five rounds. Subdivide 2A and 3A for five rounds. Six champions. 12 brackets total.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

btango, in theory based on the shear difference in total number of schools in 4A and 1A, compared to 2A and 3A, not subdividing the playoffs makes sense. However, the large disparity in enrollment still occurs in 4A. Classifications and subdividing are built on enrollment parity which the NCHSAA coaches all were strongly in favor of, so I don't see the subdividing of classes changing any time soon.

In 4A, you have a 1,314 kid difference between largest and smallest 4A school. That's about twice as much as you see in the 2A and 3A brackets, and even 1A.

 

[Sportsnut17]

I think nothing is changing except the 20-30-30-20. And new conferences of course.

 

[ReidsvilleRam90]

In 2001, our 2a conference had three of the top five teams in the state. Cummings undefeated on the season, reidsville one loss, western alamance two losses. Under the old system, 9-2 #5 in the state sat home in the playoffs. It needed to be fixed. But it "got fixed too good."

Anything is better than the top line bottom line home team crap.

 

[btango]

In 2001, our 2a conference had three of the top five teams in the state. Cummings undefeated on the season, reidsville one loss, western alamance two losses. Under the old system, 9-2 #5 in the state sat home in the playoffs. It needed to be fixed. But it "got fixed too good."

Anything is better than the top line bottom line home team crap.

A 9-1 second place team stayed home one year when they lost their last game. Issue was that inferior teams got in as second place teams because the NCHSAA had predetermined playoffs spots for conferences. Most years that 9-1 is in the playoffs as a second place finisher. That season their conference was the odd team out with one slot, the conference champion.

 

[btango]

Saw this from somebody else and I strongly agree with it. I think under the new 20/30/30/20 system, the 4a and 1a playoffs should be divided as below.

32 teams are eligible for the playoffs. This gets rid of the pointless first round games for a lot of teams to play against the helpless 3 win team that doesn't deserve to be there any ways. You then divide into AA and A. 16 largest playoff qualifiers play in the AA bracket. 16 smallest qualifiers play in the A bracket. You then divide East and West (8 teams each). Frankly, the same faces will still be in the mix, but it makes sense given the smaller percentage of teams in the 4A and 1A classifications, both of which you find the largest disparity in enrollment numbers as shown above with South Meck and Glenn comparison.

Top 3 teams from each conference are playoff eligible. In the event the number of playoff eligible teams exceed 32 for the bracket, you start at the bottom and pull out the 3rd place finishers with the worst records.

I agree on that. My theory was to make the 2A and 3A smaller and not subdivide those two classes as the schools would be some much more comparable in enrollment size. These discussions show that there is not an easy fix.

 

[GoNtheDistance]

In 1998-1999, HIgh Point Andrews was 9-0, ranked #4 in 3A heading into their last game of the year against Ragsdale. Andrews lost which created a 3 way tie between them, Ragsdale and North Davidson who all finished 5-1 in the conference and split against each other. They drew straws and Andrews at 9-1, ranked #7 in the final AP poll missed the playoffs. The old system was bad in those cases but as somebody said above, it's almost too much at this point.

 

[Godevilsgo]

All this for football? The other sports are the ones with more travel and issues. 11 games, big deal. Simply knock a round off 1A and 4A and be done. Just like wrestling in 1A.

 

[btango]

All this for football? The other sports are the ones with more travel and issues. 11 games, big deal. Simply knock a round off 1A and 4A and be done. Just like wrestling in 1A.

Granted varsity football does not travel during the week and the JV only has four or five games on the road. Football also brings in more money at the gate and concession stand so not many coaches/ADs/principals will go for dropping a week. It was offered to 1A before last season.

 

[Godevilsgo]

Granted varsity football does not travel during the week and the JV only has four or five games on the road. Football also brings in more money at the gate and concession stand so not many coaches/ADs/principals will go for dropping a week. It was offered to 1A before last season.

Imagine that.

 

[CHEERDUCK]

The last thing I want to see is watering down the playoffs in all the other sports like has happened in football. The basketball playoffs are excellent with four classifications and there have been years when smaller schools were the ones vying for titles.

I agree with four classic classifications. I do not like eight subdivisions. I think football should divide into six after the season using the ADMs like is currently used but 192 qualifying teams and not the current 256.

Exactly.....6 divisions and cut the playoffs down one week.

 

[Godevilsgo]

Exactly.....6 divisions and cut the playoffs down one week.

Don't you think its odd that high school football teams play more football games thru the playoffs than college? And when their was just one bowl and no conference title game it was only 12 games a year. These kids are subjected to injury way to much comparatively.

 

[btango]

Exactly.....6 divisions and cut the playoffs down one week.

Would still be five weeks but six divisions. This would somewhat make the playoffs a reward for regular season success.

 

[ReidsvilleRam90]

Here's a thought from left field. Way out in left field.

The feminization of America continues. The 'concussion' Nazis win. For the 'safety' of the children, playoffs are eliminated. The only trophy you can win is conference title. A title that means nothing to a real program.

 

[btango]

Does anyone think that football will disappear from the high schools within 50 years if not much less? The game goes away to some degree or it goes from public schools to a club system.

 

[Godevilsgo]

Does anyone think that football will disappear from the high schools within 50 years if not much less? The game goes away to some degree or it goes from public schools to a club system.

The trend is coming that soccer will become a one of the major USA sports. The sport of the world has grown immensely over two decades. I expect that growth to continue rapidly.

I could see a number of changes in the game of football and equipment used. Technology to screen players injuries will lead to changes such as no kickoff. When the game was played mostly between the tackles the game speed was slower with less major injuries. I don't think we have seen the end to rules that require more attention by trainers and coaches. I see a day when high school soccer bans the header as well.

All schools should be required to carry enough insurance to repair injuries sustained by high school athletes while they are in school.

 

[beamer24]

Hope not but will smith's new movie won't help.

 

[Godevilsgo]

One round of playoffs needs to completely disappear however you do it. I don't care what self absorbed coaches want. These kids are serving Rome as gladiators (fans and coaches) without consideration to study time, physical damage, and family time. The endowment game and the extra round were added for both money and coaches ego.

No true fan of the game cares about round one. Who in the world wants to go see a 4-7 pathetic team play a 11-0 title contender. I would never go see such a game. It's gotten to the point that these bad teams get beat so bad they now have kids trying to cripple players or start fights to disqualify good teams.

 

[btango]

One round of playoffs needs to completely disappear however you do it. I don't care what self absorbed coaches want. These kids are serving Rome as gladiators (fans and coaches) without consideration to study time, physical damage, and family time. The endowment game and the extra round were added for both money and coaches ego.

No true fan of the game cares about round one. Who in the world wants to go see a 4-7 pathetic team play a 11-0 title contender. I would never go see such a game. It's gotten to the point that these bad teams get beat so bad they now have kids trying to cripple players or start fights to disqualify good teams.

I am ok with five rounds if there is no subdividing. The teams that win the smaller subclass would be in the mix for the title in a non subdivided playoffs.

If they reduce to four rounds I would want to see a better formula for qualifying. I am ok with conference champions automatically qualifying but a number two in some conferences may not be as good as a number five in a few conferences much less a number three.

 

[starch]

One round of playoffs needs to completely disappear however you do it. I don't care what self absorbed coaches want. These kids are serving Rome as gladiators (fans and coaches) without consideration to study time, physical damage, and family time. The endowment game and the extra round were added for both money and coaches ego.

No true fan of the game cares about round one. Who in the world wants to go see a 4-7 pathetic team play a 11-0 title contender. I would never go see such a game. It's gotten to the point that these bad teams get beat so bad they now have kids trying to cripple players or start fights to disqualify good teams.

You think the kids want to play less games? Of course not. They bust their butts year round in the weight room, then all summer. They want to play as many games as possible and wear that jersey as many Fridays as possible.

 

[Godevilsgo]

You think the kids want to play less games? Of course not. They bust their butts year round in the weight room, then all summer. They want to play as many games as possible and wear that jersey as many Fridays as possible.

I can guarantee you 4-7 kids want that season to be over. Have heard it many times.

 

[new_dawg]

Top 3 teams from each conference are playoff eligible. In the event the number of playoff eligible teams exceed 32 for the bracket, you start at the bottom and pull out the 3rd place finishers with the worst records.

OK, let's say you have 36 playoff eligible teams, and there are six 3rd place teams with a 5-6 record. How do you choose who to eliminate?

 

[Chopper747]

Here's a thought from left field. Way out in left field.

The feminization of America continues. The 'concussion' Nazis win. For the 'safety' of the children, playoffs are eliminated. The only trophy you can win is conference title. A title that means nothing to a real program.

The concussion issue is spilling over into alot of sports now. Right now they're starting to focus on soccer with heading balls and players colliding.

 

[Chopper747]

The trend is coming that soccer will become a one of the major USA sports. The sport of the world has grown immensely over two decades. I expect that growth to continue rapidly.

I could see a number of changes in the game of football and equipment used. Technology to screen players injuries will lead to changes such as no kickoff. When the game was played mostly between the tackles the game speed was slower with less major injuries. I don't think we have seen the end to rules that require more attention by trainers and coaches. I see a day when high school soccer bans the header as well.

All schools should be required to carry enough insurance to repair injuries sustained by high school athletes while they are in school.

Call me conspiracy theorist, but I actually think the push towards soccer has some international-politcal overtones. I think certain powers that be dont like the fact that soccer not being a major US sport alienates the country from the rest of the world in popularity. There are countries(ie Brazil, Portugal, Germany) who's national teams are popular around the world solely because of soccer. Somewhat hearts and minds thing. Easier to popularize soccer than to export football. If rugby becomes popular domestically then I'll feel justified in my theory lol.

 

[Chopper747]

You think the kids want to play less games? Of course not. They bust their butts year round in the weight room, then all summer. They want to play as many games as possible and wear that jersey as many Fridays as possible.

I can guarantee you 4-7 kids want that season to be over. Have heard it many times.

I think both points are valid, but if I was a 5-5 team or 7-4 team who had a bad stretch due to injuries(Vance for example) and all my top players were playoff ready and we didn't make the playoffs due to only the top 2 seeds, that would be a disappointing season for a potential championship run. Couple that with a conference champion who coasted into the regional title game while the better 5-5 team is sitting at home.

 

[starch]

I can guarantee you 4-7 kids want that season to be over. Have heard it many times.

If a school doesn't want to participate in the playoffs, fine, they can declare themselves ineligible and add the next available school.

 

[starch]

The concussion issue is spilling over into alot of sports now. Right now they're starting to focus on soccer with heading balls and players colliding.

If the wussification continues, heading the ball in soccer will be outlawed.
Soccer players are more suseptable to concussions than football players.