Dudley?

No.1RamsFan

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Nov 20, 2005
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letdasmokerol

It's simple ....keep your starters in and score every play until the
final horn sounds ..then lets see what all the bleeding hearts have to
say about that !!!!

Nobody is saying that. What does that have to do with this issue? Enlighten us.
 

FBRef

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Nov 8, 2001
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Originally posted by Champ_24:
I actually believe this is a good sign. NCHSAA is really thinking this over,I could see Dudley being hit with a BIG fine and force to go on the road
They already had a Wednesday morning conference scheduled. That's why they're discussing it on Wednesday morning.


To a couple of other points:
What if it were reported on Sunday?

Weren't the brackets finalized on Saturday? Once that happens, it's over. Sunday wouldn't have made any difference.

He only played two plays!

That actually has nothing to do with it. If you dress, you have participated. It makes no difference whether you take the field or not.

8 Quarter Rule
This has nothing to do with the 8 qtr rule. The HC thought he could pull the plays up because the JV season was over. None of them were participating under the 8 qtr. rule. You can't dress/participate/play in two schedule games in one week.

This post was edited on 11/11 9:41 PM by FBRef
 

joetown2001

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I said the same thing earlier hokie, this is going to reveal more than just one game. This is going to open a floodgate to other things bigger than Friday night. All these people wanting to hang the SEG coach may want to wait for this thing to play out.
 

No.1RamsFan

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It was 4 jv players and 1 of them was a junior.

If the other 3 were fresh or soph and were 8 quartered then they are probably in the clear. Unless of course the paperwork was not filled out on them or they played more than the legal 8 quarters. the big issue is the jr. playing in two games in one week. Another question is had he done this in other games as well. If he did this makes the issue far worse. Again all of this falls back onn the HC and AD. The AD is ultimately responsible for this as well as the Principal.Each one is an agent for the other starting at the top.
 

FBRef

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Originally posted by No.1RamsFan:
It was 4 jv players and 1 of them was a junior.

If the other 3 were fresh or soph and were 8 quartered then they are probably in the clear. Unless of course the paperwork was not filled out on them or they played more than the legal 8 quarters. the big issue is the jr. playing in two games in one week. Another question is had he done this in other games as well. If he did this makes the issue far worse. Again all of this falls back onn the HC and AD. The AD is ultimately responsible for this as well as the Principal.Each one is an agent for the other starting at the top.
From what I've been told, HC thought since the JV season was over, he could bring them up for Friday's game. When that's discussed, it's got to raise a red flag for somebody.
 

No.1RamsFan

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The amount of time has no significance. You school administration (AD) and you X coach should have know the rule. Ignorance of a rule does not allow you to to be exempt from being able to abuse it. If it did on every flag that is thrown against you on Fri. night you could argue that they should simply pick it up because you did not know that such a rule existed.
 

hokiemtc

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Mar 29, 2002
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Originally posted by No.1RamsFan:
Again all of this falls back onn the HC and AD.
Agreed, and good post. This is why both of these guys will soon be in the unemployment line, along with some others.
 

No.1RamsFan

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FBRef, the fact still remains that every HC in NC knows that you cannot play play two games in one week unless you are 8 quartered. I find that explanation by a HC had to swallow. I know that many coaches are ignorant of the rules (some officials as well -LOL-The Devil made me include that) and I was guilty on many occasions but when an official made a call I had no idea what the penalty was I kept my mouth shut but there are rules (and this is one) that all coaches and AD's are required to know. This is FB Coaching 101.
 

hokiemtc

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Mar 29, 2002
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Originally posted by dtfix:
This is a clear case of the punishment not fitting the crime and the dangers of passing a new rule without considering the potential for unintended consequences.
Stay tuned. You have no idea how big this is. The next few days are going to rock some worlds around here.
 

hokiemtc

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Mar 29, 2002
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Originally posted by blindref73:
Hokiemtc, I'm going to push you...are you just talking about more games from 2014 or vacating wins from 2013 and vacating the state championship?
I want to give the proper channels the chance to release a lot of additional info tomorrow (and there's going to be a ton of it coming over the next few days), but the stuff you mentioned is just the beginning of how deep this goes.
 

btango

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Nov 5, 2003
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Is there not a statute of limitations on forfeits from previous years. There was one in 1997-98.

Play Thursday or Friday. I do not like multiple games in a week. I understand the reason for it.
 

hokiemtc

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Mar 29, 2002
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Dunno, tango. Heck, I would think you'd be the guy to ask, LOL.

Anyway, a forfeited season or two (or five) might be the least of Dudley's worries at this point.



This post was edited on 11/11 10:36 PM by hokiemtc
 

Blue and Gold22

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Originally posted by FBRef:


Originally posted by No.1RamsFan:
It was 4 jv players and 1 of them was a junior.

If the other 3 were fresh or soph and were 8 quartered then they are probably in the clear. Unless of course the paperwork was not filled out on them or they played more than the legal 8 quarters. the big issue is the jr. playing in two games in one week. Another question is had he done this in other games as well. If he did this makes the issue far worse. Again all of this falls back onn the HC and AD. The AD is ultimately responsible for this as well as the Principal.Each one is an agent for the other starting at the top.
From what I've been told, HC thought since the JV season was over, he could bring them up for Friday's game. When that's discussed, it's got to raise a red flag for somebody.
FBref- That is exactly what I told someone tonight. He is claiming ignorance. So what you are telling me is that when the decision is made to pull kids up not a single asst or a AD says " hey, you cant dress those Jr's tomorrow". It also gives more validity to Hokie's comments. If ya didn't know this year you have most likely caused the same violation in the past. Which now all comes out.

Unreal to me that he didn't understand that.
 

hokiemtc

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Maybe this guy will get it right in his next coaching stint. Which will probably not be in NC, BTW.
 

FBRef

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Originally posted by No.1RamsFan:
FBRef, the fact still remains that every HC in NC knows that you cannot play play two games in one week unless you are 8 quartered. I find that explanation by a HC had to swallow. I know that many coaches are ignorant of the rules (some officials as well -LOL-The Devil made me include that) and I was guilty on many occasions but when an official made a call I had no idea what the penalty was I kept my mouth shut but there are rules (and this is one) that all coaches and AD's are required to know. This is FB Coaching 101.
Not arguing the point, just explaining what I was told and pointing out that it had nothing to do with the 8 qtr. rule.
 

beamer24

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Jul 16, 2009
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Lenior
I think if the shoe was on the other foot any fan of said team would want grace for an infraction that had no barring whatsoever on the outcome of any game.

Now if more stuff comes out like some are saying will that did give a unfair advantage then its a different story.
 

wossa

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Oct 18, 2002
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As probably the only Ragsdale fan on this board I have to say I hate this for Dudley. They have a great coach, great program and great fans. There has been a pretty fierce rivalry between these two teams for several years now. Win or lose Dudley has shown nothing but class on the field during and after the game. I'll never forget after a brutal playoff loss at Dudley a few years back, the line of old Dudley fans waiting to congratulate the Ragsdale QB for how well he played and how tough he was.

I hate it for Dudley because they deserved the chance to defend their title. I was looking forward to weeing that run. Dudleuy shellacked Ragsdale 42-0 earlier this year, one of the few blowouts in this rivalry. Ragsdale was playing their first game after losing their starting QB so the outcome was almost inevitable. I think Ragsdale would have given them a better game but it still wouldn't be a very pretty in the end. Dudley would whomp us again.

Mooresville will probably whomp us next week.

I'll let all the rules people weigh in on why Dudley should forfeit. Me - I hope they get a chance to play.
 

GoNtheDistance

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Oct 3, 2003
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All the folks on here latching on to the claim that this is going to be bigger than we think and pretend to have all this info yet hide behind their claim that they will wait for the right channels to release info are laughable. If you know something then say it. Don't be afraid to say what you supposedly know unless you are afraid it's false.
 

TGT

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Sep 18, 2001
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Let's put this in football terms:
Illegal procedure draws a 5-yard penalty
A flagrant foul gets you 15 yards and ejection.

This seems to be illegal procedure.

Both infractions - different penalties.

Hopefully the NCHSAA executive board will see it that way in the hearing today and walk off 5 yards instead of the harsh alternative.

Unless there's precedent for this exact situation, the NCHSAA could avoid a lot of ill feelings by coming up with an appropriate penalty (somebody suggested loss of home field advantage). If there's precedent, that's different - but regular season is not the playoffs.
 

Marty Moon

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Jul 31, 2001
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Easy fix if you want to keep Dudley in the playoffs but still want or need to penalize them. Just move them to a 16 seed; changes no matchups and the Dudley/Ragsdale winner is going to advance to play the 8-9 winner regardless. If Ragsdale was to pull the upset, then let them resume their original 16 seed so no future opponent has to give up a home field advantage that they otherwise would have enjoyed. If Dudley wins as expected, they are on the road the rest of the way as the 16 seed.
 

Blue and Gold22

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Originally posted by TGT:
Let's put this in football terms:
Illegal procedure draws a 5-yard penalty
A flagrant foul gets you 15 yards and ejection.

This seems to be illegal procedure.

Both infractions - different penalties.

Hopefully the NCHSAA executive board will see it that way in the hearing today and walk off 5 yards instead of the harsh alternative.

Unless there's precedent for this exact situation, the NCHSAA could avoid a lot of ill feelings by coming up with an appropriate penalty (somebody suggested loss of home field advantage). If there's precedent, that's different - but regular season is not the playoffs.
Some of you keep saying stuff like this but the NCHSAA not only anticipated this scenario but put the penalty in the bylaws. It clearly states that if a forfeit situation occurs after the seedings the school is disqualified for the playoffs. They don't need a precedent they already planned for this exact situation. Why on earth would they go back and change it now?

I get it. It sucks. Kids had nothing to do with it but they never do in these situations and the team is penalized for the actions of its coaches. It is no more egregious than many of the ineligible infractions that we have seen occur in the past where teams had to lose their seasons.

It be nice to see a Dudley fan come on and say it sucks BUT our coaches screwed up and now we have to pay the price. Not a single one of you is denying that it occurred only that its not fair.
 

DREAM BIG 10

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Jan 15, 2014
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Lets be real. Dudley could have dressed out the cheerleaders and put them on the field at the time of the infraction and it wouldn't changed the out come of the game. I know the rule was broken but let the punishment fit the crime. I wouldn't want to win the 4A championship and always hear flack (YEA YOU WON IT BUT YOU WOULND'T HAVE IF DUDLEY WAS ALLOWED TO PLAY).
 

cvaughan598

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Jan 11, 2005
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8 quarter rule does not include Juniors. This rule only applies to freshman and sophomores in emergency situations. The second a Junior played on Thursday and dressed on Friday, Dudley was in violation of participation rules. That is a fine in and of itself. The second he stepped foot on the field, regardless of score or outcome, that game is forfeit. Northern's winning streak ended on not having specific knowledge of this rule. And believe me, it happens a lot of different places not just at Northern Guilford and Dudley.

The by-laws also address anything that happens after seeding. Sucks for the kids, but I don't see this ending very well for the Panthers. Just like it did at Northern, it falls on coaching staff and AD for not having the knowledge of the rules.
 

flag_em

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Nov 9, 2002
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Like I said earlier, I don't see how the NCHSAA can circumvent their own rule at this stage of the game. It was in place ...and if folks didn't like it when it was implemented, they should have said something then. After the fact ...after the coaches see how it effects their team is a little late to talk about tweaking it and making exceptions.
Yes --it is a big punishment ..and probably doesn't fit the crime...but it's too late to change that now.
Maybe next year .... but if you change it in the middle of the process -- you are opening up a HUGE can of worms.
 

CHEERDUCK

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Jun 5, 2001
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The NCHSAA did not commit the violation, Dudley did. The NCHSAA will be responsible for telling Dudley it's your fault you are in the situation you are and you will have to miss the playoffs due to that being the case.

You can not be kinda pregnant, either you are or you're not.

I hurt for the players on the Dudley team.
 

CatholicCougs14

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Jan 4, 2013
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I have to say after hearing what I have heard has really gone on I can no longer fault SE Guilford. This is not a one player thing, one game thing, or even one season thing. There were FOUR ineligible players playing in the game. I am sorry I feel bad for the kids but not the coaches. It is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to know the rules and follow them. They chose not to do that and I cannot feel sorry for them.
Does the timing suck? Yes it does, but Dudley I am told could have to forfeit their entire regular season so it may not matter anyways. It is a shame that kids who worked so hard to go undefeated again and try and go for another title because of the actions of their coaches they no longer can.
I apologize if I offended any SEG fans with my comments earlier, but this is not looking good for Dudley....not looking good at all.

This post was edited on 11/12 9:11 AM by CatholicCougs14

This post was edited on 11/12 9:16 AM by CatholicCougs14
 

NDAnnouncer

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So do I understand a lot of you correctly? Rules are rules and we should stick by the rules...unless there is no competitive advantage and then rules are just suggestions or recommendations.

"Officer, I know you clocked me at 85 mph in a 35 mph zone...but there was a traffic jam a few miles back, so I was still going to be late to my appointment, therefore I would not have actually gained an advantage by speeding. Please just make me take a longer route to my destination from now on and let's call it good."
 

DREAM BIG 10

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Jan 15, 2014
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I agree, I doubt the ruling will be overturned. It just really is terrible that not only Dudley will feel the effects but so will the entire 4A West grouping. We all know what the 4A champions will hear... Yea you won but ....

They shouldn't but they will...Its human nature.... So at this point, no matter what the out come.... the entire 4A bracket is tainted.... If they are allowed to play, the word will be (the cheaters were allowed on the field and shouldn't have been), if they aren't the word will be (if they were allowed to play they would have been the state champs)...loose....any way it goes.

My vote, take out the 8Q rule all together...Either you dress out for JV or Varsity....one or the other period. This would elimate these type of issues, all things equal... if one of your key players are injured, you need to have someone else on your team that has been (cross trained in that position to fill in). Everyone would be in the same boat and those (potential varsity players), can still be on the sidelines to gain insite but not in pads.
 

johnrobertswsnc

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Jul 27, 2014
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I just don't see how a Head Coach does NOT KNOW the rule about juniors playing jv and varsity in the same week.

If for some reason Dudley is ALLOWED to play, the Head Coach should be banned from the playoffs this year.
 

BlackKnightNut

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May 13, 2007
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Dudley fans might remember, but in a few years no one else is going to put an asterisk on the state champ this year. Everyone else did what they were supposed to, so whoever's left will be the true state champion anyway.
 

TGT

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Sep 18, 2001
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I'm thinking the NCHSAA was thinking in their rule that a forfeit at this stage of the game would be something like finding out players were ineligible for grades, out-of-district stuff, or perhaps staying eligible only because some academic advisor guided them to classes that didn't really meet.

Certainly not for team members dressing out for a varsity game after they had played JV the previous night. If ever a slap on the wrist is warranted, this is the case. Lesson learned, nobody better ever do it again. Play ball.
 

blindref73

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Oct 27, 2014
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There are 2 different rules/issues that I think many people are missing when they say "the punishment doesn't fit the crime" or "the NCHSAA needs to change the rule". Dudley received a "slap on the wrist" for the ineligible player. They forfeited one game and will have the record books show 9-1. NO BIG DEAL. Punishment does fit the crime.

The separate issue is the timing of when this happened. This is what is causing Dudley to miss the playoffs. The NCHSAA has already thought this situation through and applied this exact ruling to other schools in the exact same situation in previous years. Changes in record after the brackets are finalized remove a team from the playoffs.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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1) I hate this for the KIDS, but the kids can only blame the coaches. HC and AD should be the first to know the rules. And why play that Jr on JV?

2) SEG are cowards on how they handled the situation. Not for reporting. If it is true they did report it. They could of reported it Friday night. Or made Dudley aware of it so they could report it themselves. Again that's if they reported it.

3) Reason you couldn't hate SEG to much if they did report it on monday, because that's telling you that DUDLEY HC had no plans on self reporting it. Great man or not, it's truth. The HC BASICALLY said he wasn't aware of the kid RUNNING ON THE FIELD ON HIS OWN Friday night. Okay I can deal with that. Even if it's after a long timely injury like a knee injury. Everyone knows that kind of injury causes for a good delay in a game. So I'm sure a coach has plenty of time to find a replacement. But anyway, I'm sure the coaches watched some kind of film this weekend and notice the kid playing. All I'm saying, if he hasn't told by Monday, he wasn't planing on it.

4) Rather the kid played or not, the rule was broken when the kid put on the uniform, went out for warm ups, and the first whistle was blown for the opening kickoff. From what I've read, It's only been a rule for how long now? A JR can not dress for two games in one week. Rather he plays or not. And the fact that he didn't know or realized that the JV and Varsity game last week against SEG was in the same week, is a red flag. Last week was still week 12 of the regular season. JV season isn't officially over till after Friday nights game. So him saying he moved the kids up because the "JV season was over," is ignorance or a lie. Not being rude, just truth. It's paper work to be filled out, and check up with a Dr. on Friday before ever Friday game if a kid is 8 quarter. Im sure he was aware of that JR dressing out.

5) I was really hoping for a Reagan-Dudley matchup, if both teams was to survive every week. But selfishly this puts any team in the 4a a little at ease. But the rules are the rules and can't be bent for just one team. I'm sure the northern guilford kids didn't want their wins taking away last year. They had to suffer it. If coach first interest was the kids, he would of reported it as soon as he realized it. I'm sure he watched film before Monday morning.
 

DREAM BIG 10

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Jan 15, 2014
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History records are one thing, yea it will be forgoten over time: but having to hear it over and over the day of what should be one of the high-lights of your life is another.

We all know how the news and how they operate: I can see the headlines and cover stories now: (HEADLINES: Team XXX wins the 4A championship after the Controversial ruling against Dudley (last years champions) which elimated them in round one against a 16th seeded team.) It sucks but that is the world we live in....
 

beamer24

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Jul 16, 2009
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Originally posted by NDAnnouner:

So do I understand a lot of you correctly? Rules are rules and we should stick by the rules...unless there is no competitive advantage and then rules are just suggestions or recommendations.

"Officer, I know you clocked me at 85 mph in a 35 mph zone...but there was a traffic jam a few miles back, so I was still going to be late to my appointment, therefore I would not have actually gained an advantage by speeding. Please just make me take a longer route to my destination from now on and let's call it good."
No were saying the punishment is too harsh. Driving with an expired registration plate is a class 3 misdemeanor if found guilty a judge could sentence you to 1-15 days in jail. Do you know how mant people have spent time in jail for a dead tag?

Nothing can be done right now but most people hate it for the kids and wish the punishment would be something besides forfieting the playoffs.
 

bearsfan83

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Sep 29, 2011
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If a team from east or west wins the 4 a this year it will not be because Dudley was removed. It will because of hard Work. Good luck on the appeal. Hope for the best!

This post was edited on 11/12 10:01 AM by bearsfan83

This post was edited on 11/12 10:01 AM by bearsfan83
 

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