Cardinal Gibbons ADM vs Chambers ADM
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I think the advantage of resources is probably the biggest differential between a public and a private school. I hate to continue to beat this dead horse because it's been burried and dug up over and over. For most schools in NC, not all, there is a significant gap between the resources at schools like Catholic and Gibbons and some public schools. The money put into those weight rooms versus most public school weight rooms are vast. Go take a tour of CG and you'll see. Also, I don't know of many public schools that have dedicated masters level CSCS certified strength and conditioning coaches to work with the student athletes. Nutritional offerings at the private schools trump what public schools offers its students. Another biggie is continuity of coaching staffs along with compensation. CG has one of the best staffs in NC HS football. That DC is a future star and could be easily coaching on Saturdays. At private schools you can pay better than you can at public schools. That definitely plays a huge factor in the continuity of the coaching staff. I have seen many very good coaches leave the public schools ranks for jobs in SC or college so they can provide a better quality of life for their family. Those items play a huge part in the product that's placed on the field in August. But I'm definitely not bringing these up as an excuse for any public school. I'm just pointing out the facts. I'm also pointing out that the principal, HC, AD and the booster club have to be all in, in regards to resources.
Well those are real and undisputed facts. Those schools do have a lot more than we have no doubt.Their weight rooms blow ours away, they have their own youth team run by the head coach and we are not allowed to have. But there are things public schools can do to close the gap and that is what we are doing. I say as long as Charter and private schools are allowed to play in the NCHSAA then here is a solution , allow open enrollment throughout North Carolina. If Cardinal Gibbons, the Charter schools or Catholic are that big of a threat allow open enrollment. That will stop that. Because none of those schools are going anywhere
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sammyk, I have a lot of respect for your opinion but have to disagree on this one. Open enrollment is great for the “haves”, but not so much for the rest. Additionally, forget sports. Some districts, such as Davidson County, have strict rules on where kids attend to control crowding. Otherwise, everybody within twenty miles would want to attend that new crown jewel, Oak Grove. The transfer portal is quickly ruining college sports. I hope we continue to keep a little perspective in high school sports. They really are about more than all star teams and kids with D1 potential. I know you know that in your role. But the average fan and some coaches tend to forget it.
I get it I do. If you read my earlier post I was all about just getting better and beating the so called "Advantaged Private School" And I still stand by that. But Either you stop pointing out what they have accept it get better or allow choice. But I do get it
The facilities at Charlotte Catholic are not the best in Charlotte and not close to the Big 4 privates that are within an eight mile distance of the CC campus. From my years of watching them I believe that nearly every CC football player came up through their elementary/middle school system. I see CG as having very little private school competition so footballers looking at a private school have just a few options of big time football. This leads to my belief, which may be false, that CG has numerous footballers that did not come through the system and were not part of the Catholic Church. To me that is the biggest issue. If they are playing in the NCHSAA it should be because they are a "community" school made up of the Catholic faith. The "district boundary" should include membership in good standing for at least two years before the student participates in sports.
What you said above, btango, is exactly why these private schools should not be allowed in the NCHSAA.
It should be an association for PUBLIC SCHOOLS ONLY.
By their very nature, private schools are “ different”. Sometimes, that has no bearing on their competitive status in the various sports. But often, it can create large advantages.
That is not a situation for the Association to have to deal with. Or opposing teams.
We are not Charlotte Catholic haters by any stretch. We respect and admire their success. Cardinal Gibbons, also.
But the challenges in today’s public schools are difficult enough, without adding a layer of athletic competition that can and is often unfair.
Public schools only.
That is the simple and sensible position.
Need to ditch the open magnets, WS Prep, and charters that are quasi athletic magnets, at one time Bishops girls hoops for example, or at least bump them up in class drastically.
As I wrote over ten years ago, the Parichial schools would be much less of an issue in the future than other alternative education options
As I wrote over ten years ago, the Parichial schools would be much less of an issue in the future than other alternative education options
There are different levels of Private. You have your Charlotte Catholics and Cardinal Gibbons of the world. IMO they have no serious advantages against Publics. Chambers had the Jimmy's and Joe's, and CG was better prepared.
Than you have your super elite All Star privates like Mater Dei, St Johns, and Bishop Gorman. You could put Chambers & CG together, and Mater Dei would beat them by 3 TD's minimum. Today, NC currently has no privates or publics in the same stratosphere as those schools.
CC and CG are much closer and align with the super private Catholic schools much more than a public school. The typical school day at those super privates and catholic are nearly identical. The reason they dont want to compete with other privates is the can get their cake and eat it too by having better set ups and advantages while avoiding travel/sports cost. Hell both have routinely been ranked in the Catholic top 25. They have polls and associations that all private catholic schools are in. When two schools have won more championships in 20 years then over 65% of the entire state combined you have a problem. Say what u want thats not normal. The avg. Highschool has won maybe 1 possibly 2 state ships in 20-25 years. CC and CG have won over 125 in that span. Make it make sense.
Mater Dei has more FBS kids on their roster this year, and every year than CC & CG will have combined the next 2 years. Not the same type athletes.
You talking athletes. Im talking Catholic school set up. MC has more athletes then RR but its a similar school set up. Those Catholic schools are just about same similar set up. The same sports focused set up. The majority of CC, and CG students play sports. At the avg. Public school most students dont. Historically the schools were set up for sports exclusively and a sense of pride among the Catholic church. The purpose of the Catholic schools set up was to exclude non-catholics and have dominant sports teams to better Catholic pride. Thats why they have Catholic associations featuring their winning success, their on polls, their on admissions, their on guidines because they are not a public school. What happened to separation of Church and state?
Stated it before. Explain to me how 2 schools have more ships in 20 years than over 66% of the other schools combined?
Explain to me how private parochial schools went 11-2 i believe vs. Public schools in state football championships?
Explain how they can dominate country club sports, dominate academics, dominate in income, but all of a sudden those advantages/domination supposedly stop at football?
Again make it make sense.
Stated it before. Explain to me how 2 schools have more ships in 20 years than over 66% of the other schools combined?
Explain to me how private parochial schools went 11-2 i believe vs. Public schools in state football championships?
Explain how they can dominate country club sports, dominate academics, dominate in income, but all of a sudden those advantages/domination supposedly stop at football?
Again make it make sense.
You know a lot more than me, regarding the Catholic school set up. I know absolutely nothing outside of Football. The other sports, I’m clueless. This I do know. The privates I mentioned, are built differently when it comes to Jimmy and Joe’s. When they hit the field, just about every starter is a FBS kid. They also actively recruit. CC & CG combined would get blown off the field against the elite privates. Never in the History of CC, have they had 20+ FBS kids on the roster in one season.
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You are making my point. They don't compete and cant compete against those type of privates, but you expect run of the mill public schools to compete against CC, and CG? The caliber of athlete at CC, and CG is superior to most high schools in NC and its not close. Thus 125 state ships in 20 years. They are superior athletically and get a better student athlete. Having a 6 county radius is insurmountable in most sports.
What does what is going on in other states have to do with NC....No way I will ever be convinced that PUBLIC SCHOOLS and Private schools in NC ARE ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.....Money and who U know can get a lot of things done ...Why are they Private to start with.....Do private schools follow ALL THE SAME RULES AS PUBLIC SCHOOLS...Practice days , Starting dates for beginning practice ,hourly practice time, Boundary lines, Suspension rules, etc.....I can understand schools might want to play them during season , but in my opinion Private should not be allowed in the State Playoffs...I guess one way to stop it would be to just not schedule them at all...Let the schools play them that want to play them...Cant say my school was afraid....Just my opinion......
What goes on in other states is important because people in NC will say its a local issue, but when u see the same public/private issues in other states it shows its a bigger issue than CC and CG. This debate is happening in other states as well as publics have dominated
Once again , You are just pulling things out of your a$$ about Charlotte Catholic. Your quote "The purpose of the Catholic schools set up was to exclude non-catholics and have dominant sports teams to better Catholic pride" is just a lie you pulled out of thin air. MACS and the Bishops controlling the purse strings at the Catholic schools in the Charlotte area have never shown any interest in pushing athletics first. Our practice field is a mud hole, We were forced to upgrade our stadium to be able to move up to play 4A. I KNOW what I am talking about I went to CC and have been part of the community for almost 60 years. I don't mind if you have legit arguments for CC's success, be you put yourself out as an expert on CC and our "set up", but for someone who actually knows you are clearly a LIAR who makes things up because you think it sounds good and maybe makes your argument. QUIT LYING ABOUT THINGS YOU CLEARLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.
Man please. When you have no facts you go to calling people liars. The history of Catholic Schools and sports in America is decades old going back to the Reformation period. The Augustinian values, the spiritual benefits of competitive sports. Hell, Catholic schools were some of the first to be big in integration to better compete and win sports contest which opened the door to many Afro-American stars. Even going back to Notre Dame football. Catholics have always had a high value on sports, especially football. BC, Villanova. Sports has always been big.
I am talking about Charlotte Catholic and the things you posted are straight lies, there is absolutely NO emphasis on football or any other sport above education and indoctrination to the faith. Once again our facilities, while a bit better now, were embarrassing 10-15 years ago. I don't know or care what historical issues you have with Catholics but I know what you are saying about this community are lies. Just take your bigotry, hate and ignorance somewhere else.
Bigotry, hate, ignorance? Words a weak mind uses when they cant confront facts. CC and CG have decided advantages over public schools. To say CC doesnt stress football is very disingenuous. Its CC pride and joy. Have a nice day. Until u stop spewing hate and can look at facts this convo is not for u. Get your emotions in check.
Ahhhh...not play them at all. So, you want to go the route of the MIAA and not play them, like the MIAA did with St. Frances in Baltimore. That is an option. The following was found on Wikipedia.
"St. Frances' football program has become the subject of controversy within Maryland in the late 2010s. After former Gilman School coach Biff Poggi took over as head coach, he began aggressively recruiting talented players from inside and outside Maryland, to a greater degree than other private schools in the state did. Within a few seasons, St. Frances became effectively unbeatable by their traditional opponents in the Maryland Interscholastic Athletic Association (MIAA), regularly defeating them by wide margins.[10]
Before 2018 those teams told St. Frances they would no longer play them, citing safety concerns as many of St. Frances' recruits were well outside the typical height and weight range for high school players and more in line with college football teams. Some St. Frances supporters believe the opponents' real motives are racial since there had been no complaints when predominantly white teams like Gilman had been similarly successful in earlier seasons. The team won the MIAA championship before the season even started since all those opponents had to forfeit their games, but scheduled intrasquad scrimmages, opponents from as far away as Canada, and road trips to the South for the players' benefit.[10]
Poggi departed the program in July 2021 but the team continued its winning ways, finishing the following season in the top 5 of MaxPreps' 10 national rankings."
Someone mentioned earlier to just have statewide open enrollment. The state of Florida currently has that.
Controlled Open Enrollment
The Florida Legislature recognizes the value of an educational system that provides numerous and meaningful options for students and their parents. In order t.
www.fldoe.org
BTango or someone mentioned earlier Bishop Gorman went to an endowment based funding instead of Diocese based. This is the type of funding the privates in Charlotte have, Country Day, Providence Day, Charlotte Christian and Charlotte Latin, I believe.
When you quit telling lies I'll quit holding up the mirror. Genuine disagreements are fair but people even more ignorant than you might believe the crap you are making up and I won't have it. I stand by what I have said. By the way, confronting Bigotry, hate and ignorance are not words of a weak mind, until you figure this out, this "convo" is not for you.
Over 125 state championships between two schools over 20 year period is not hate or a lie its a FACT. Explain that anamoly.
11-2 catholic vs. Public school championship record for 2021 is not hate or a lie but a FACT.
Having a 6 county attendance zone is not hate or lie but a FACT.
Competing with schools that lack resources and dont have similar resources is not hate or lie but a FACT that you have a clear advantage.
OH, PA, WA, FL, IL, CA, WA, NY, NC, MI, MN all have had these similar debates where private parochial schools disproportionately win over public schools. Thats not hate or lie. But a FACT.
CC and CG play by a different set of rules in NC designed to try and even an unbalanced playing field. If it were not unbalanced they wouldnt need a different set.
Lastly if the vote were held without abstainees parochial schools and charters would easily have been removed from the NCHSAA but too many schools abstained. But the percnetage of the vote CLEARLY showed the public schools didnt want them in. Thats a FACT.
Ive never used hateful words, bigotry or amything to disparage CC or CG. Never will.
11-2 catholic vs. Public school championship record for 2021 is not hate or a lie but a FACT.
Having a 6 county attendance zone is not hate or lie but a FACT.
Competing with schools that lack resources and dont have similar resources is not hate or lie but a FACT that you have a clear advantage.
OH, PA, WA, FL, IL, CA, WA, NY, NC, MI, MN all have had these similar debates where private parochial schools disproportionately win over public schools. Thats not hate or lie. But a FACT.
CC and CG play by a different set of rules in NC designed to try and even an unbalanced playing field. If it were not unbalanced they wouldnt need a different set.
Lastly if the vote were held without abstainees parochial schools and charters would easily have been removed from the NCHSAA but too many schools abstained. But the percnetage of the vote CLEARLY showed the public schools didnt want them in. Thats a FACT.
Ive never used hateful words, bigotry or amything to disparage CC or CG. Never will.
Living in the triangle and watching high school football here for the last eight years let me comment on something about Cardinal Gibbons. The news and observer in 2015 or 16 did a weeklong expose on Cardinal Gibbons as they rose to 4 A And schools like Wake Forest, heritage basically today’s NAC Conference protested. There was no complaint when they were three AA and the Durham schools welcomed them into their conference and never complain about advantages they simply beat Cardinal Gibbons. That weeklong in-depth report on the demographics showed that almost 90% of their kids came from the Catholic school system in Raleigh. There were very few that came from the public school middle school system and the remainder primarily came from non-Catholic private schools such as North Raleigh Christian, Saint Timothy school, Saint David’s school. As I said on another thread, kind of like Charlotte Catholic, it’s a lot of family there. Especially recently if you look at the football team rosters a lot of the star players had siblings there or years before. It’s a tradition. I will say the advantage they do have its consistency in the staff. But I also know a lot of those people are hired on faculty so they teach and coach. That keeps people around versus a part-time coach. Also, Catholic schools do historically commit to sports, with public schools in waxes and Wanes. And be quite blunt in wake county soccer is King. Those who know also know football is not king at cardinal gibbons, it’s lacrosse. Except for the last two years, football is probably third behind boys lacrosse, girls lacrosse and then football.
Take the starting line up of Cardinal Gibbons and list where they went to school before entering CG. Also, were they members of the Catholic Church and for how long prior to entering. That will tell you a little more. I have written repeatedly the Catholic schools are more like a community school than most of our publics are now.
CG will have more success than CC because they will not fight for talent with Providence Day, Country Day, Latin, and Christian which are all in the same general area and have facilites that are much better than CC.
Christian has been solid, Latin off and on, Country Day has been down awhile but was tough for a long time. P Day is on fire with former Davidson Day HC (and father of Will Grier) Chad Grier leading the program.
Christian has been solid, Latin off and on, Country Day has been down awhile but was tough for a long time. P Day is on fire with former Davidson Day HC (and father of Will Grier) Chad Grier leading the program.
Pick a year almost any year and you can count on your hands the number of kids on CG roster that DID NOT come from one of the Catholic feeder schools OR another private school. Unless Catholic or a familial connection it’s hard for non - Catholics to get into CG today. VERY hard. The dioceses gives ALOT of deference and priority to Catholics,
Take away that like...Hard to get in unless you are a very good athlete at a one of the particular sports offered by that school....Want to play public school football , then play by ALL THE SAME RULES THEY GO AND PLAY BY....JUST THAT SIMPLE ...THEN EVERYBODY WOULD BE SATISFIED...
I know this is hard to accept for a lot of people. But the diocese Runs Cardinal Gibbons, it’s not a private school owned by a for-profit industry. If they were recruiting the best athletes they would have more players playing at the next level and they would win championships along time ago. If they play with the same rules as public schools… public school transfer would immediately, they cannot. When I say it’s hard for kids to get in- referring to those who are not Catholic, I mean it’s an academic thing, a legacy thing meaning families went there. other than that is Catholics first (active in dioceses) and then if there are openings or waitlist someone else can join in. As I said before if you want the truth all you have to do is read the news and observer article where they had full access to the demographics and school data. High School OT has lots of information on this. If a student comes from a public school and goes to Gibbons they must sit out 365 calendar days if they live within 30 radial miles of Cardinal Gibbons and that was published by the North Carolina high school athletic association. Meanwhile, kids from one school public can go to another public school to follow the coach and all they have to do is adjust for transportation and it happens all the time with exception for certain wake county schools that have capped numbers.
"Another private" is not a positive look.'
Do they have players that are not members of the local diocese? I think that should be the most important component of playing sport at one of the Parochial schools. Not deciding to become a Catholic or start being active because you are headed to the Parochial school to play sports but you had been there. I would like to see two years in the church before they participate. If they move from another diocese that is fine. I would not have an issue with players going to the Catholic school to play sports if they were part of the church. I see that as going to your "home district" school.
