New playoff system...

[Tigertown_a_Rick]

It really is mind boggling if the Coaches do not understand the seeding process, or how teams are being chosen for postseason....I mean they are the ones who are devoting a lot of their time to their respective programs in an effort to make the playoffs....

Let's face it: Everyone in this world has an agenda of some kind or some sort, so what's likely to happen if there are some head-scratching seeds and playoff teams is that people are going to want to know WHO these people are, and WHAT methods did they use to determine how teams were selected, and WHY were they chosen for the spot they received?....It's accountability as simple as that....If Coaches are going to be held accountable for how their teams perform, it goes without saying that the People or System that is choosing the playoff teams should also be held accountable for HOW and WHY teams are selected for the playoffs?

I will reserve any judgement that I have until I actually see the Brackets, but based on how the Volleyball playoff brackets have already seen confusion from fans....It's a pretty safe bet that the Football playoff brackets will also be just as confusing IMO...

 

[btango]

First off the NCHSAA screwed up with the whole 20 30 30 20 to classify schools. There are 409 schools in the state. There are 101 1a schools in this new realignment which is not 20%, the number should be 81-82. They took out all non football playing schools and did the split then put those schools back in. Why does the state determine a whole athletic programs classification based on football, they play all those other sports that have playoffs. For all other sports in this scenario you can have a school with 225 students playing a school with 650. Which brings me to my next point, why does the state not sub divide all sports. They say their goal is to level the playing field but how is this fair? again going back to my 225 school versus a 650 school. same number of kids to choose from for baseball as there was for football but yet football gets subdivided. Now the only problem with subdividing is the charter schools, they need to have their own playoffs, they make up approx 30% of 1a schools which is plenty to have their own playoffs especially when you add in the bigger charter schools in other classifications. For the state to be so worried about money they sure are missing out on a lot by not doing this, 8 public school state championships and 1 charter school state champion. This would level the playing field and have teams that are close in adm numbers have a chance to compete with schools more like them.
As for the new playoffs and max preps rankings, they are a joke, when teams who have lost head to head and have a worse record are above the team that beat them its a joke! And why are we having byes in the playoffs put 8 more teams back in, again the state will lose money this year by reducing teams so i dont understand that. Conference champs should not be guaranteed anything but a spot in the playoffs not a high seed or a (bye). Teams that are not in the top 50 on maxpreps rankings will get a bye if the projections hold. I truly believe that the NCHSAA has absolutely butchered the whole playoff and realignment for the next 5 years.

Alignment is for four years not five.

The playoff setup can be changed next year. They can go back to the previous system. They could drop subdividing which I would love but I understand why they have it.

Football requires the most players to compete and makes some sense to subdivide. Over the last 15 years there have been several schools win basketball champs that would be "small". The competition is solid, don't screw it up.

You are right, 48 teams was a mistake, should have went to 32 which is 40% of the football schools in 1A and 4A. Why go to 64 of 78 teams? Ridiculous. Especially in 1A, let those kids go play winter sports.

 

[mh333]

Your right they can change the playoff system. Over the last 15 years I'm not sure there are too many state champions in basketball and baseball from (small) 1a schools that aren't charter schools i maybe wrong but just doing some quick research I don't see it but if I find thisntonne wrong please tell me so I can share with some people.
As far as the 32 48 or 64 they are using football/non football to set alignment. I understand where your coming from on the football side of this but There are 101 schools that are 1a in all other sports besides football. Thus my point of 101 not being 20% of schools in nc.
either subdivide all sports or subdivide none. But to argue for subdividing, More students equals more chances of getting more "talented athletes" so statistically the larger schools should be better over a given time. Of course there are times where this doesn't hold true but I bet there are more 6'5 -6'7 basketball guys and more 86-89 pitchers at a school with 700 students versus a school with 200 most years.
Not trying to disprove you or say I know more just simply stating what I see as some problems with the association.

 

[mh333]

Also none of this matters if charter schools are in small 1a but that's an argument for another day

Alignment is for four years not five.

The playoff setup can be changed next year. They can go back to the previous system. They could drop subdividing which I would love but I understand why they have it.

Football requires the most players to compete and makes some sense to subdivide. Over the last 15 years there have been several schools win basketball champs that would be "small". The competition is solid, don't screw it up.

You are right, 48 teams was a mistake, should have went to 32 which is 40% of the football schools in 1A and 4A. Why go to 64 of 78 teams? Ridiculous. Especially in 1A, let those kids go play winter sports.

 

[btango]

There was talk of subdividing other sports a few years ago but the coaches from those sports did not support it. They increased the number of playoff teams several years ago.

1A charters (and 2A if there are any) are at the point they could have their own playoffs in some sports.

There are 100 schools in 1A for non football sports. There are 115 in 2A and 3A. 78 in 4A.

Personally I thought 2A and 3A should have had the 20% number of teams and not subdivided football because the enrollment numbers would not have varied drastically.
Subdivide 1A and 4A in some teams sports (but not any individual) due to the large difference in enrollments. In 1A, charters would all be 1AA. Fill the remaining half of the slots in 1AA with the largest schools. 1A would be the smallest half of 1A schools with all traditional or just have 1AA as charter and 1A as traditional.

 

[mh333]

There was talk of subdividing other sports a few years ago but the coaches from those sports did not support it. They increased the number of playoff teams several years ago.

1A charters (and 2A if there are any) are at the point they could have their own playoffs in some sports.

There are 100 schools in 1A for non football sports. There are 115 in 2A and 3A. 78 in 4A.

Personally I thought 2A and 3A should have had the 20% number of teams and not subdivided football because the enrollment numbers would not have varied drastically.
Subdivide 1A and 4A in some teams sports (but not any individual) due to the large difference in enrollments. In 1A, charters would all be 1AA. Fill the remaining half of the slots in 1AA with the largest schools. 1A would be the smallest half of 1A schools with all traditional or just have 1AA as charter and 1A as traditional.

A few years ago also there was a push by a portion of 1A coaches to get charter schools out of 1A but the problem with voting was that the 2A,3A, and 4A schools would not support it because with charter schools in 1A it didn't have an affect on them and by not supporting the push it would keep the charter schools from being put into higher classifications where they would continue to not be affected.

 

[btango]

There was not a vote on charter schools. The vote was on the the three Parochial schools of which one was scheduled to move up to 4A at the time. One was 3A and one was 1A. The 3A and 4A switched classes and the 1A remains there. I think they should each play up one full classification.

A big problem was the coach that brought the vote and how he went about it.

The issue on charter schools is they are state legislature's golden child. The NCHSAA has basically been told they are "hands off".

 

[mh333]

There was not a vote on charter schools. The vote was on the the three Parochial schools of which one was scheduled to move up to 4A at the time. One was 3A and one was 1A. The 3A and 4A switched classes and the 1A remains there. I think they should each play up one full classification.

A big problem was the coach that brought the vote and how he went about it.

The issue on charter schools is they are state legislature's golden child. The NCHSAA has basically been told they are "hands off".

Correct there was no vote or nothing was ever presented in terms of getting all charters out, there was a push made to get it to a vote and in front of the association but because of the lack of support from higher classifications nothing ever came from up. More or less a lot of back room talks at conferences, and meetings and such.

 

[mh333]

Got way off subject from the original post which is the new playoff system and how it is working and will work for the rest of the year. Biggest issue i have heard from coaches is the max preps number and how teams with worse records are above teams with better records and how nobody really knows how the max preps number is calculated. I mean school history is part of the criteria. What does that have to do with 2017 team?
I do believe that being a conference champion should automatically qualify you for playoffs but not guarantee you a higher seed or a bye. If we have to use max preps number then lets use it and let the teams with the highest numbers be the higher seeds regardless of conference champion status.

 

[ObserveAndReport]

Over the last 15 years I'm not sure there are too many state champions in basketball and baseball from (small) 1a schools that aren't charter schools i maybe wrong but just doing some quick research I don't see it but if I find thisntonne wrong please tell me so I can share with some people.

In boys basketball, last state champ from a small 1A "traditional school" was Hayesville in 04. Mount Airy won in '02 and they sometimes go small, but that is it for champions the last 15 years. As far as regional champs, North Stokes made the finals in '06 and lost to WRH (now 2A), North Edgecombe made the finals in '07 and lost to Thomasville (now 2A), Weldon made the finals in '04 and '09, losing to Hayesville then Bishop, and Pamlico ('08) and Plymouth ('12) both made the finals and lost to WS Prep.

In girls basketball, Mount Airy won last year, but before that (and if you don't count Mt. Airy as small) the last small, traditional 1A would be Chatham Central in 2000 I guess. Weldon, SE Halifax, Southside, Plymouth, and Perquimans have all made the finals but lost in the finals the last 15 years.

In baseball, South Stanly has won titles in '09, '12,and '13 and was runner up in '15. Chatham Central also won in '06 after being runner up in '05. Murphy also made the finals and lost last spring.

 

[btango]

The assessment on state champions was looking at all classes and 1A did not separate out charters. It was from a few years ago. The issue in 1A does not appear to be as much school size as traditional. I may be wrong but I think 1A schools would prefer a charter and traditional setup over a big and small subdivide.

Note that WS Prep is not a charter but a magnet with open enrollment that allows transfers with no required set out period. The NCHSAA no longer has a 365 set out for transfers.

 

[btango]

I mean school history is part of the criteria. What does that have to do with 2017 team?.

This is a fallacy that has been making the rounds. Max Preps does not use a team's historical performance in their computer rankings. Probably one of the positives compared to a poll or committee.

 

[Rebelpride25]

So according to this week's polls. If they go big mount airy and tarboro would have 1 seeds and for small north Duplin and I guess north Stanley or Cherokee? I am I right or wrong?

 

[ObserveAndReport]

North Stanly generally goes big. Cherokee and TJCA are both undefeated playing for conference titles, so you'd think they have their destinies in their own hands as to top seeds, but it isn't so certain now with this system. TJ played a weak non-conference schedule, so would the new system cause a conference champ with a worse record than them--like Mitchell, or Murphy if they beat Cherokee and get tiebreaker--to jump them?

 

[thekidd12]

This is a fallacy that has been making the rounds. Max Preps does not use a team's historical performance in their computer rankings. Probably one of the positives compared to a poll or committee.

This is from this link:

https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default/files/attachments/NCMaxPrepsRanking_FAQ.pdf

"How does the formula differ from an RPI or power-points rankings system? Power points and RPI based systems select arbitrary point or percentage values for games against opponent and opponent’s opponents. The value selected is not important, but the shortcoming is that both only measure two layers deep, whereas MaxPreps can measure infinitely deep. This allows MaxPreps to measure all teams against each other regardless of whether or not they have a common opponent. In the end, this is the core reason MaxPreps can better seed high school sports, where talent levels are vastly different from top to bottom. Power-points and RPI-based systems can’t directly measure all teams against each other and fall somewhat short due to the large number of games and difference in talent at the high school level."

I do have a question about the wording above. How in the world can you measure something "infinitely deep"? By definition infinity cannot be measured.

And you wonder why I don't like Maxpreps?

 

[footballstar_17]

North Stanly generally goes big. Cherokee and TJCA are both undefeated playing for conference titles, so you'd think they have their destinies in their own hands as to top seeds, but it isn't so certain now with this system. TJ played a weak non-conference schedule, so would the new system cause a conference champ with a worse record than them--like Mitchell, or Murphy if they beat Cherokee and get tiebreaker--to jump them?

Yes. If Mitchell, Murphy and TJ are all conference champs, it goes off of Max Preps rankings.

So it would be Mitchell, Murphy, then TJ.

 

[Squirrel Gravy]

This is from this link:

https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default/files/attachments/NCMaxPrepsRanking_FAQ.pdf

"How does the formula differ from an RPI or power-points rankings system? Power points and RPI based systems select arbitrary point or percentage values for games against opponent and opponent’s opponents. The value selected is not important, but the shortcoming is that both only measure two layers deep, whereas MaxPreps can measure infinitely deep. This allows MaxPreps to measure all teams against each other regardless of whether or not they have a common opponent. In the end, this is the core reason MaxPreps can better seed high school sports, where talent levels are vastly different from top to bottom. Power-points and RPI-based systems can’t directly measure all teams against each other and fall somewhat short due to the large number of games and difference in talent at the high school level."

I do have a question about the wording above. How in the world can you measure something "infinitely deep"? By definition infinity cannot be measured.

And you wonder why I don't like Maxpreps?

I think what they are saying by "infinitely deep" is not a matter of going back in time, but a matter of weighing your opponent's strength, their opponent's strength, then their opponent's strength, and on and on and on. It's infinite in that however many teams exist is however many teams are figured into the ratings for each team. Maybe a better word choice would have been "total" for their system vs. "limited" for other systems.

I understand why they don't publish their system. It's proprietary and what draws people to their site. I'd wager that Simmons is the most accurate but I understand why the state would use a national source that would seem much more like an established third party.

 

[ObserveAndReport]

Yes. If Mitchell, Murphy and TJ are all conference champs, it goes off of Max Preps rankings.

So it would be Mitchell, Murphy, then TJ.

Right, but others had been saying it doesn't go off of the regular rankings, but some super-secret formula. In which case, there's really no way to predict how it will those teams.

 

[thekidd12]

I think what they are saying by "infinitely deep" is not a matter of going back in time, but a matter of weighing your opponent's strength, their opponent's strength, then their opponent's strength, and on and on and on. It's infinite in that however many teams exist is however many teams are figured into the ratings for each team. Maybe a better word choice would have been "total" for their system vs. "limited" for other systems.

I understand why they don't publish their system. It's proprietary and what draws people to their site. I'd wager that Simmons is the most accurate but I understand why the state would use a national source that would seem much more like an established third party.

Did not mean they were going back in time but in re-reading quote from btango I can see where you would think that. Just meant that Maxpreps feels like in their secrecy that they are re-inventing the wheel from 3000 miles away. McDonalds secret sauce still looks and tastes a lot like Thousand Island dressing to me but they prefer to call it "secret".

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[FridayNiteLights1217]

Letting MaxPrep do the match ups is BS . NCHSAA the monkey is still on you back and even more now ! !

 

[btango]

Letting MaxPrep do the match ups is BS . NCHSAA the monkey is still on you back and even more now ! !

What would you recommend?

 

[Mitchell county mountie]

I actually like the new format. You get seeded according to your strength instead of your record, something I have long despised about college football.

 

[FridayNiteLights1217]

What would you recommend?

I just don't trust a cumputer doing it. I thought it was working fine after they changed it from the pods. Do you like a computer doing it. Seems no one liked the volleyball picks.

 

[Squirrel Gravy]

I think the best thing about it is that it encourages teams with playoff aspirations to schedule harder opponents more so than the old system. Having a bunch of cupcake wins may not cut it anymore.

 

[Squirrel Gravy]

I just don't trust a cumputer doing it. I thought it was working fine after they changed it from the pods. Do you like a computer doing it. Seems no one liked the volleyball picks.

I mean, the computer will make mistakes, but I like a computer doing it more so than a human poll. There's no way a group of people have competently watched 400 high school teams and sized them up in a fair manner in order to determine seeding and eligibility of the playoffs. At least this way, there is a metric that applies to all.

Granted, some more transparency would be appreciated.

 

[RD28327]

Northern Durham?

Northern Nash

 

[FridayNiteLights1217]

I mean, the computer will make mistakes, but I like a computer doing it more so than a human poll. There's no way a group of people have competently watched 400 high school teams and sized them up in a fair manner in order to determine seeding and eligibility of the playoffs. At least this way, there is a metric that applies to all.

Granted, some more transparency would be appreciated.

Guess we will have to wait and see how it works and judge it afterwards

 

[ColeridgeNC]

As I said earlier, the cream will rise to the top.

The seeds will sort themselves out.

I like that teams will be rewarded for playing good teams.

Overall record is not a good indicator, teams were padding their schedules.

This system rewards tough schedules, but also rewards conference champs.


I think we need to try it this season in all sports and see before making any judgements.

I think it's going to be more good than bad.

 

[mbdfan]

I'd be fine with Maxpreps rankings determining seeding IF there were more transparency on their end. To have a different ranking formula for the NCHSAA playoffs than your standard formula seems unnecessarily vague at best. The Maxpreps formula for determining playoff seeding needs to be public domain.

 

[btango]

Northern Nash

And Concord. Lost in 1995 5-0 to Kannapolis in the last game of season. Kannapolis had non conference losses to two 3A teams.

 

[Mitchell county mountie]

Where has it been stated that there is some secret rankings? I haven't read that in any of the rules, just on the message boards.

 

[NWWatchdog]

The assessment on state champions was looking at all classes and 1A did not separate out charters. It was from a few years ago. The issue in 1A does not appear to be as much school size as traditional. I may be wrong but I think 1A schools would prefer a charter and traditional setup over a big and small subdivide.

Note that WS Prep is not a charter but a magnet with open enrollment that allows transfers with no required set out period. The NCHSAA no longer has a 365 set out for transfers.

Actually, they do. If BOTH LEA's agree on the kid seeking a transfer, then there is no penalty. If the LEA of the school from which the student leaves takes the position that the transfer is "sports related only" and they disapprove, they can block immediate athletic eligibility and the kid has to sit out 365 (see North Stokes this past year with several kids seeking to leave).

 

[NWWatchdog]

Where has it been stated that there is some secret rankings? I haven't read that in any of the rules, just on the message boards.

It's not a secret ranking, but Maxpreps doesn't disclose HOW they determine their rankings and that's pretty frustrating, especially since their rankings determine playoff seedings now.

 

[Mitchell county mountie]

I still haven't seen anything stating that the playoff rankings are any different than the ones updated every week and posted publicly. If anyone has a link to show where it says that, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Squirrel Gravy]

I still haven't seen anything stating that the playoff rankings are any different than the ones updated every week and posted publicly. If anyone has a link to show where it says that, I'd appreciate it.

It used to say that on the maxpreps rankings page but it doesn't now.

 

[btango]

I just don't trust a cumputer doing it. I thought it was working fine after they changed it from the pods. Do you like a computer doing it. Seems no one liked the volleyball picks.

I think they have needed a power poll for years. Teams that played a very weak schedule and dropped a non conference loss being seeded over a perfect team that played a monster schedule by drawing the long straw. I will take the computer and let them play it out.

 

[btango]

Actually, they do. If BOTH LEA's agree on the kid seeking a transfer, then there is no penalty. If the LEA of the school from which the student leaves takes the position that the transfer is "sports related only" and they disapprove, they can block immediate athletic eligibility and the kid has to sit out 365 (see North Stokes this past year with several kids seeking to leave).

if the systems agree there is no 365. Previously it was not allowed unless the system had a different rule but everyone "disguised" the fit athletic reasons part. Forsyth County allowed an open transfer period twice a year. May be not a big deal fir 4A schools but that is huge if a 1A school can get a few athletes.

 

[bareman]

“cupcake schedules” keep getting mentioned; keep in mind that some teams have a hard time getting games (distance, strength of team, etc..) so sometimes you take what you can get...can’t do anything about conference games but the non-con’s are having to be scheduled a year or 2 ahead

 

[Gonzo9419]

I think the big issue people have with the strength of schedule is that some teams can't help who they schedule non-conference. CSD is at a bigger advantage due to their location so it is easier for them to schedule tougher opponents than someone like Murphy. The other issue is with MaxPreps, no one really knows what goes into their SOS formula.

The threshold is 25 beat bad teams by 25 and if you lose don’t lose by more than 25

 

[Gonzo9419]

At the end of the day teams with 4-5 wins versus teams with 2-3 loses should get in period point blank. The nfl nba sos doesn’t matter but we have made it matter in hs. Win and you in should be formula. I get scheduling there are some teams who schedule weak non conference because they know they won’t win conference games. How about a 5-5 team versus a team who went 2-8 versus stronger sos are they really better than that 5-5 team??????