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6A Proposal

RD28327 said:
I've got to like the effort you put into this, Grizz! You decided to "apply the numbers," rather than just talk about them. Sure there are some "bugs" and "flies in the ointment", but eventually, they can be worked out. I would like to see you to put something like this together five, and even seven classes.

I'm just tired of all these crazy split conferences, though some are necessary due to the layout of the state. I would rather see five, or even four-team conferences than some mixed-up split conference. If it comes down having a four-team conference, then let them double up conference meetings (home and away).

Also, if a team wants to "play up one level", then let them (J.M. Robinson comes to mind in this case ... ). In the above example, I can see some schools which may benefit from "playing up."

I can see five or six classes happening before I see seven classes. The numbers may not be even or "pretty," but things do have a way of working themselves out.
Click to expand...
I would like 3 classes and then have 6 champions
 
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GrizzlyDevil said:
I would like 3 classes and then have 6 champions
Click to expand...
I liked that option in the past! Thought it would give two more champions in team sports and make it easier to set conferences and basically zero splits. Virginia had something like this setup.

Schools did not support it with biggest complaint being the size difference between schools in their respective classes.
 
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btango said:
I liked that option in the past! Thought it would give two more champions in team sports and make it easier to set conferences and basically zero splits. Virginia had something like this setup.

Schools did not support it with biggest complaint being the size difference between schools in their respective classes.
Click to expand...
That's the biggest problem I see...the gap in the 3 classes...almost seems as if the smaller teams would have no chance to even make the playoffs. Really doesn't look fair on paper at all.

I've been looking at it this morning.
 
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Here is what I would propose this way:

break the 376 football only schools into 3 classes to make conferences

ClassesTeams
1A121
2A131
3A124

Once conferences are made, break the classes down further to A and AA

ClassesTeamsADM
1A64<585
1AA57586 - 799
2A66800 - 999
2AA651000 - 1299
3A611300 - 1749
3AA631750>

The breakdown gives us some large 8-9-10 team conferences...which I actually like more than I thought
 
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1ARobbinsville375Graham
1ACherokee387Swain
1AHayesville395Clay
1AMurphy466Cherokee
1ASwain County553Swain
1ABear Grass Charter221Martin
1ASouth Creek226Martin
1AWeldon299Northampton
1AKIPP Pride402Northampton
1ANorthampton County424Northampton
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1AThomas Jefferson355Rutherford
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1AEast Wilkes519Wilkes
1AAEast Surry588Surry
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1AChrist the King321Mecklenburg
1ACherryville508Gaston
1ACS of Davidson514Mecklenburg
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1AHighland Tech554Gaston
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1AAlbemarle435Stanly
1AUnion Academy505Union
1ASouth Stanly556Stanly
1AANorth Stanly669Stanly
1AAWest Stanly763Stanly
1AAAnson785Anson
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1ANorth Rowan531Rowan
1AStarmount552Yadkin
1AAThomasville638Davidson
1AAPine Lake Prep657Iredell
1AAWest Davidson772Davidson
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1ANorth Stokes329Stokes
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1AACarver680Forsyth
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1AWest Columbus402Columbus
1AEast Columbus413Columbus
1AEast Bladen585Bladen
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1AAWhiteville687Columbus
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1AARed Springs748Robeson
1ANorth Duplin317Duplin
1ALakewood466Sampson
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1APender579Pender
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1AAWallace-Rose Hill674Duplin
1AAHeide Trask715Pender
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1AJones306Jones
1ALejeune341Onslow
1APamlico County449Pamlico
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1AAWest Craven774Craven
1ARosewood456Wayne
1APrinceton585Johnston
1AAKinston634Lenoir
1AASouth Lenoir710Lenoir
1AASpring Creek728Wayne
1AAGoldsboro736Wayne
1AAGreene Central744Greene
1AANorth Johnston761Johnston
1ASoutheast Halifax238Halifax
1ARocky Mount Prep266Nash
1ANorthwest Halifax322Halifax
1AWarren County551Warren
1ALouisburg561Franklin
1AAJ.F. Webb705Granville
1AAGranville Central780Granville
1ANorth Edgecombe197Edgecombe
1ATarboro514Edgecombe
1AAAyden - Grifton626Pitt
1AANorth Pitt759Pitt
1AABeddingfield780Wilson
1AAFarmville Central782Pitt
1AColumbia178Tyrrell
1AWashington County334Washington
1ANorthside - Pinetown406Beaufort
1ASouthside406Beaufort
1AAManteo592Dare
1AABertie603Bertie
1APerquimans457Perquimans
1AGates County482Gates
1AHolmes549Chowan
1AACamden County592Camden
1AANortheastern630Pasquotank
1AAPasquotank County702Pasquotank
 
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2ASouthWest Edgecombe814Edgecombe
2AHertford County844Hertford
2AWashington860Beaufort
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2AFirst Flight888Dare
2AACurrituck County1000Currituck
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2ASouthwestern Randolph851Randolph
2ARandleman856Randolph
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2ANorth Davidson991Davidson
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3AEast Forsyth1725Forsyth
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3AWest Charlotte1577Mecklenburg
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3AHarding University1666Mecklenburg
3ARocky River1673Mecklenburg
3APalisades1692Mecklenburg
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3AOrange1306Orange
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3ANew Bern1615Craven
3AD.H. Conley1625Pitt
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For playoffs, as before, you will have your top 32 from each subdivision: CC, auto 2s, WC.

Once you have the 32, divide the 16 west and 16 east. Then seed CC by RPI, 2s by RPI, then WC by RPI.
 
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The plan discussed further with the three classes was to set the subdivide not based on playoff qualifiers but on the schools from largest to smallest. A team may finish third in the conference but not make the playoffs while the team that finished fourth would make the small subclass.

I always felt subdividing from four to eight was going to still reward the largest schools.

No perfect answer and I can tell you the number of different options looked at over the years and presented to the schools have covered many angles.

Two main wishes:

1. Football and other sports aligned and conferences/classifications set separately.

2. For the playoffs a separation of the smaller schools that do not abide by a reasonable geographic district. The toughest part of the that would be dealing with standard public schools (not charters or magnets) that allow students from outside the school's geographical boundary to participate in sports.
 
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The "perfect" plan designed by a 1A public school in western NC may not work very well for a 2A school located among mostly 4A schools. The plan that is perfect for large metro areas could be a negative to rural schools. There is a lot of diversity with extreme differences across the state regarding LEAs, communities, and sports.
 
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btango said:
The plan discussed further with the three classes was to set the subdivide not based on playoff qualifiers but on the schools from largest to smallest. A team may finish third in the conference but not make the playoffs while the team that finished fourth would make the small subclass.

I always felt subdividing from four to eight was going to still reward the largest schools.

No perfect answer and I can tell you the number of different options looked at over the years and presented to the schools have covered many angles.

Two main wishes:

1. Football and other sports aligned and conferences/classifications set separately.

2. For the playoffs a separation of the smaller schools that do not abide by a reasonable geographic district. The toughest part of the that would be dealing with standard public schools (not charters or magnets) that allow students from outside the school's geographical boundary to participate in sports.
Click to expand...
Subdivision could be…(40% AA - 60% A) for 3A in Grizz’s projection.

Prolly need to go the other way for 1A and 1AA.

I guess what I’m saying is the subdivision doesn’t have to be 50-50 if it works better for the largest and smallest schools.

Good stuff! btango
 
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Well I'd like to hear one fact that shows 4a has more disparity than 1a. Numbers don't show that.
Another thing is the numbers for Robbinsville 345.
Also under this play nothing changes from what 1a has now. The biggest gap percentage wise than any class.
 
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BK13T-$ said:
Well I'd like to hear one fact that shows 4a has more disparity than 1a. Numbers don't show that.
Another thing is the numbers for Robbinsville 345.
Also under this play nothing changes from what 1a has now. The biggest gap percentage wise than any class.
Click to expand...
As a general rule...the larger the ADM gap the bigger the disparity of competition. That's the whole premise behind having classifications to begin with. There is no greater gap than in the largest classification.

ADM gap in my 6A breakdown:
1A=433
2A=226
3A=190
4A=311
5A=504
6A=1836

If you're referring to some other disparity, I don't know what it is.
 
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300. - 600 is a 100% increase
2,300 - 2,600 is a 13% increase
That's why 1a is considered the biggest disparity.
 
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BK13T-$ said:
300. - 600 is a 100% increase
2,300 - 2,600 is a 13% increase
That's why 1a is considered the biggest disparity.
Click to expand...
If they go 7 divisions that may shrink the disparity. But there is no perfect answer. But still better solution than idem quod.
 
BK13T-$ said:
300. - 600 is a 100% increase
2,300 - 2,600 is a 13% increase
That's why 1a is considered the biggest disparity.
Click to expand...
While true...each school is playing another school with 300 more students. Disparity in this case is measured by the raw number of kids available...not a percentage of ADMs.

I understand what you're saying. That the talent pool in the hundreds is different than the thousands. More than likely, the 2000 kid school has their athletes sorted and the extra 300 kids with the other school doesn't matter. But that's all speculative and an assumption.

What's real is: the more kids the higher chance of available athletes. There is no greater difference in the number of kids than in the larger classifications.

But what you say gives me an interesting idea for a breakdown...I'll dabble this week
 
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Hilltoppers1111 said:
You're right, RS was the last team in the county to hold out in 3A. But when they dropped 2A they moved right in with East and Chase.
Click to expand...
I think one of the coaches that's helping at Mount airy or it's his son used to be the head coach at RS. I grew up in kings mountain. Back in the day. Beat conference in the state hands down. Crest, Shelby, burns, kings mountain, south point, east and north Gaston and the three Rutherford county schools. Talk about grueling.
 
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If they went by raw numbers as you say then why would 2a only be from 700-950 or round about.
 
BK13T-$ said:
If they went by raw numbers as you say then why would 2a only be from 700-950 or round about.
Click to expand...
Because of the sheer number of schools in that range.

If you graph out the schools based on ADM. You'd get a positive skewed bell curve. The only way to make it work, like you would want statistically, would be to break it down into 4A and have 1A and 4A split...so a 6A with a breakdown like...10/15/25/25/15/10.

Then you have people complaining because they're in a class with 100 schools and you're in a classification with 35. How's it fair that over 50% of 1A schools make the playoffs and only 16% of 2A makes the playoff?

There is no "fair" way to do it.
 
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Let’s just be honest
Everybody wants to move down a classification so they can rule the world
The problem with that is 1A has nowhere to move down to
 
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@BK13T-$ this is as close as I can get to fair - 7 classifications

ClassesTeamsPlayoff %ADM RangeHighest ADMLowest ADMDifferenceAvg ADMMeanSch Below MeanSch Above Mean
1A5163%0 - 5505441463983973811833
2A5459%551 - 7507495531966506472529
3A6351%751 - 9409377531848468443033
4A6152%941 - 12001199941258106210603031
5A4965%1201 - 155015461202344137813752326
6A4965%1551 - 195019461552394170717032623
7A490.651951 - 3750372019671753232623002722
376

The problem for 1A are the outliers. In 1A - if you remove the 9 outlier schools below 300 ADM - the disparity disappears completely in this scenario
 
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BK13T-$ said:
Percentage is what they go by. That's why
1a was the first to go to A/AA split.
Click to expand...
The reason 1A split first was because a group of 1A coaches (about three from down east spearheaded it) requested it and no other classification coaches did so. At the 2001 state title games a few ADs told me their coaches were wanting it for their classifications after finding out about it. Per Charlie Adams, then NCHSAA director, they would have allowed it it other classses requested it. SC had three classes subdivide for a few years but the 3A coaches voted against it and had one champion.

Around 2010 some 1A coaches wanted to split 1A into three groups. There would have been a champion for every 30 football playing schools in 1A at that time. That's more than were playing for the 1A title for some of the 1970's.

A very successful 2A coach had a biography in the teams program. It literally read, "made the playoffs X amount of times when making the playoffs was a reward for success."
 
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btango said:
The reason 1A split first was because a group of 1A coaches (about three from down east spearheaded it) requested it and no other classification coaches did so. At the 2001 state title games a few ADs told me their coaches were wanting it for their classifications after finding out about it. Per Charlie Adams, then NCHSAA director, they would have allowed it it other classses requested it. SC had three classes subdivide for a few years but the 3A coaches voted against it and had one champion.

Around 2010 some 1A coaches wanted to split 1A into three groups. There would have been a champion for every 30 football playing schools in 1A at that time. That's more than were playing for the 1A title for some of the 1970's.

A very successful 2A coach had a biography in the teams program. It literally read, "made the playoffs X amount of times when making the playoffs was a reward for success."
Click to expand...
Always heard that was David Gentry and Richard Grissom that wanted that done. But they only wanted one a and 4A split up. Because of the discrepancy in numbers. I didn't know it was people from down east.
 
BK13T-$ said:
Here is highschoolot numbers. They are not the ones you got grizzly

www.highschoolot.com

What 7 classifications looks like in the NCHSAA if realignment amendment passes

No classification would be allowed to have more than 64 schools, and classification would be determined only by the average daily membership (ADM) number of each school from the first month of the school year.
www.highschoolot.com www.highschoolot.com
Click to expand...
I had originally used them...then I went to nchsaa site and pulled the 22-23 adms they had.

It's neither here nor there right now...numbers will change a good bit for some schools between now and realignment, plus we have to see what the legislature is going to do with the proposed bill. If it does pass, then we have to hope that the Board approves letting the NCHSAA have decision power over the number of classifications. Plus we have to hope the classification vote passes.

A lot of moving parts right now.
 
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The most recent idea from the HSOT clowns is definitely "half-baked!" There needs to be a football only realignment! Have those HSOT clowns tried putting together conferences??? I seriously doubt it!!!
 
RD28327 said:
The most recent idea from the HSOT clowns is definitely "half-baked!" There needs to be a football only realignment! Have those HSOT clowns tried putting together conferences??? I seriously doubt it!!!
Click to expand...
Haha...I put together conferences.

They (HSOT) work with the basics....but don't get in the weeds.

If true, their proposal is correct. 4+ classifications all but cement split conferences...and NCHSAA has never allowed football only...so they aren't entertaining it.

What I can do is take their realignment, and make conferences. 4 scenarios: all schools no split/all schools split - football only no split/football only split...what do you want to see?
 
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Mr. Grizz, I appreciate and applaud your efforts! Those HSOT clowns are too afraid to get their hands dirty!!!

I have a feeling that if these seven classes pass, there's gonna be a bunch of split conferences. Heck, 1A and 2A schools may need to combine for a state title in football from the looks of things!!!
 
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Fox2XYHook said:
Thanks for your time to put this together. Maybe the NCHSAA should hire you to the realignment committee!
Click to expand...
I appreciate ya. I'm not sure what that process is like for them or who could be involved...I do remember when I was in school at Maiden, I believe Tom Brown and some other coaches had a hand in submitting a proposed realignment.

Maybe a coalition of coaches can submit something they would permit...I'd be happy to give my 2 and a half cents.
 
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