WS Prep 63 - Cherokee 34

Big43

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Nov 14, 2002
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WS-Prep or Bishop would not win any titles in 4-A the talent disparity would show most of those programs have some High major D1 talent that neither 1a school has. Prep plays in the local holiday tournament (Frank Spencer) with the other county schools the majority being 4a and Prep has never won the Frank Spencer so if they can't beat the local teams that don't make it out of the sectionals no way could they beat the best 4a teams.
 

ObserveAndReport

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Aug 18, 2009
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Bishop had girls sign with UNC, UVA, and other "high major D1" schools during their run. I'd agree that Bishop probably wouldn't have won 9 in a row in 4A, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they wouldn't have won any.
 

3daughters

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Nov 30, 2006
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Big43....that's why it is so moronic to call Prep the "Winston-Salem All Stars".
 

btango

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Originally posted by SlowYoRoll:
It is amazing how every year the teams from the far west complain about the teams form Forsyth county but never say anything about the teams from Charlotte who uses open enrollment to stay on top. Make no mistake about it WS Prep girls are a very good team but if they were in 4A or 3A they would not have made it to the regionals. I can't speak much on 2A because I didn't have a chance to see much of them this year. WS Prep girls are a very good 1A team but so were the Bishop, Hayesville, and Thomasville teams of the past. Prep girls haven't won their 1st State Championship much less second or third so lets not put them on a pedestal just yet. This may be all short lived because it is my understanding that they only have 7 players and 6 of them are juniors. It's ironic how 4 of those seven players come from the same AAU team. Smh!!!
You are absolutely incorrect! Charlotte Mecklenburg Schools do not have open enrollment. Give me the scenarios of "open enrollment" that you are referencing.

If a student in CMS is allowed to switch schools after day one freshman year they are required to set out 365 days of athletics. If a student is in a magnet school program that is not his home district school and enters after day one freshman year they must sit out 365 days. If the magnet students drops from the magnet program and remains at the non home district school they are required to set out 365 days even if they have been at that school three years. They can return to their home district school and play sports. The NCHSAA needs to implement this also.

One thing to note, the magnet programs in Charlotte are spread out among the high schools and are mostly high academic programs that require a student to academically qualify. Berry Academy is a county wide magnet that offers programs in the medical, engineering related fields, computer, and job skills programs not offered at most high schools. They are not a force in 4A sports.

Give me the scenarios of "open enrollment" that you are referencing. You ask me any question you want and I will answer it.
 

btango

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Originally posted by SlowYoRoll:
If there were 1A schools in Charlotte they would have open enrollment too. Just because its 4A doesn't make it right. All I'm saying is if you are going to complain about it and its about the kids and not just your kids then it should be across the board not just singling out Forsyth county.
Forsyth County is the issue in this state currently. The numerous small schools and the open enrollment periods that the county oversees along with a self proclaimed college preparatory magnet that is not turning out elite college students.
 

btango

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Originally posted by Big43:
WS-Prep or Bishop would not win any titles in 4-A the talent disparity would show most of those programs have some High major D1 talent that neither 1a school has. Prep plays in the local holiday tournament (Frank Spencer) with the other county schools the majority being 4a and Prep has never won the Frank Spencer so if they can't beat the local teams that don't make it out of the sectionals no way could they beat the best 4a teams.
I do not think WSP would win 4A titles but they would be very competitive. Doubtful they would win a conference championship but once again competitive. I think they would be in the mix for a title in 2A this year. 3A would be tough.
 

Alleghany84

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Feb 22, 2011
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You are probably right Btango, remember though posters all over the board said this a down year for them. They had to reload. If I am not mistaken, there are 2 freshmen and a sophomore that starts. Wait till they mature and lets see how good they will be.
 

btango

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Originally posted by Alleghany84:

You are probably right Btango, remember though posters all over the board said this a down year for them. They had to reload. If I am not mistaken, there are 2 freshmen and a sophomore that starts. Wait till they mature and lets see how good they will be.
You are correct on the starters and they have talent with size, which is normally the toughest thing to put on the floor.

In WSP's best seasons they have either lost to 4A schools or won very close games against 4A teams that did not advance far in the playoffs. When you watch this year's Prep team you know they are good and can compete in all classes. I think if they played in a 4A or 3A conference all season they would be better although the record may not be as good.
 

Dosso

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Mar 25, 2008
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I think it is Wake County that has open enrollment as opposed to Meck.
 

btango

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I do not think Wake has true open enrollment. They use socio economic districting to a large degree. They do have some open magnet schools that are more accessible.
 

ObserveAndReport

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You're right in that regard...even their 2008 team, which was probably their best team (with Miami signee Reggie Johnson down low and an Appalachian State signee running the point), lost to West Forsyth in the semis of the Spencer tournament and got run out of the gym by 20+ when they played Trinity's 3A state runner-up team. But then again, they might elevate their game if they saw tougher competition night in and night out. Personally, I don't get why a college prospect living in Forsyth County would choose to go to Prep. The academics aren't better than other schools in the county, and you would think a kid would want to prove his or herself against the highest level of competition possible...but maybe I'm getting old and out of touch. Is winning mismatched games that much fun to kids these days?
This post was edited on 3/9 3:08 PM by ObserveAndReport
 

Dave2kMA

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Feb 3, 2009
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Playing for a ring helps, but a lot of the kids also play AAU together, so it's about playing ball with their friends too.
 

btango

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Albemarle played the 2008 team down to the wire in the regional semi-final at North Forsyth.

Albemarle had trouble with the backcourt pressure but the killer was a base line call that went against Albemarle making it a four point game instead of two and Albemarle's ball. Also, called a charge on Denico Autry (now with the Raiders) near the end when Reggie flopped big time. Albemarle was not accustomed to that type of opponent or pressure which is basically what Prep runs into when they play the bigger schools or elite privates.
 

SlowYoRoll

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Mar 7, 2013
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And you think the 4A teams they would have been playing didn't have major D1 prospects?! Look at Myers Park! They are 92-3 at the 4A level. Its hard to say what would have happened. Coach Robinson has done and continues to do a great job with what ever talent he has. With that being said he may have gotten one or two during that time frame.
 

ObserveAndReport

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Originally posted by SlowYoRoll:
And you think the 4A teams they would have been playing didn't have major D1 prospects?! Look at Myers Park! They are 92-3 at the 4A level. Its hard to say what would have happened. Coach Robinson has done and continues to do a great job with what ever talent he has. With that being said he may have gotten one or two during that time frame.
I didn't say that. Somebody said they didn't have the big time prospects to compete in 4A. I was just pointing out that they've had their fair share over the past decade. Who knows what would have happened, but I wouldn't say for sure that they wouldn't have won any titles.
 

SlowYoRoll

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Tell me how did this thread go from talking about the girls to talking about the boys? The boys have been winning for a few years but they are yet to have an undefeated season. If I'm not mistaken every year they have lost to a 1A school so yes 1A schools can beat them. Coach Gould is doing a great job with those guys so less not discount the work he has put in.
 

btango

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Last season they lost to out of state opponents and two 4A schools.

2012-13 the only loss was pretty decisive to a very strong Mt Tabor.

2011-12 the only loss was to a very strong 2A West Stokes in multiple OTs. WSP returned the favor in another OT game.

2009-10 lost twice to Oak Hill and to Monroe in the state playoffs. Monroe won the 1A state title but had an ADM of 830 students which would have made them a large 2A school in the football playoffs.

2007-08 lost to Oak Hill, 3A runner up Trinity, and two 4A schools.

2010-11 and 2008-09 were multiple loss season.
 

BigSkyCountry

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Oct 31, 2003
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I don't care if they are 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A, or 10A. The vast majority of kids across the state have to play for the school that is located in the district where their full time residence is, where their parents live, work, pay taxes, etc... In these closed districts, if a high percentage of kids are non-athletes and interested in other things, they still count towards the school's ADM. The real issue with 1A is the fact that the vast majority of 1A schools are in a county like Alleghany where kids inside the district must travel many miles just to attend the only school in the district. The population of the school is already small. Then factor into that the fact that these kids do not have nearby access to gyms, etc... Many of them work on the farm, etc... It is a vastly different culture. For a small school in a small rural county whose population is spread out over great distances, it is a real feat for them to develop athletically, to develop the skills one gets from playing against good competition from youth on up, etc...and to be able to compete at the state level. The classifications were created for the sole purpose of kids from smaller schools to have an fair shot at competing for a state championship against similar competition. The system is way past broken. Currently it is not coming close to doing what it was designed to do. The charter school thing was designed to give kids a chance to get a better education than they would have gotten at the traditional school in their district. No one intended it to be a college sports farm system. I can forgive the state for not foreseeing this unfortunate side affect, but I cannot forgive them for doing absolutely nothing to correct the problem now that it has clearly happened. Again, I challenge any reasonable person to provide a morsel of evidence that charter schools in question here are not using the system to gain an unfair advantage. The charter door is wide open now, and there are sure to be more and more of them opening up over the next few years. There is a realignment coming up ver soon. There is no legitimate reason why the state cannot create a separate state championship for them beginning in the first year of the pending realignment. I don't care if it is a 16 team bracket the first year. Like I said, it is sure to grow in just a few more years. GET THEM OUT, NOW!!! Nothing needs to be studied. No more time needs to pass. Enough is enough. It is not that complicated. Everyone with the power to make this happens has masters or doctors degrees. Just make it happen. There is no need to take a vote. Just simply do the right thing. I could care less if they put them in a 1A conference and traditional schools have to play them in the regular season. Just separate them for the playoffs. How hard could this be? And no, I do not think it is fair to bump them up to 2A or even 4A. They play by a different set of rules, period. Let them compete against each other and they can make up whatever rules they like. I don't care. My child cannot attend a charter school. There is not one within an hour's drive. My child cannot play on a loaded AAU team either for the same reason. My child cannot transfer to a magnet school where a particular sport is emphasized more than academics. He/she goes to the same school as every single student in the county, and he/she plays with the kids that grew up here, and is proud to do so. Let the Forsyth County All-Stars play in the All-Star game and leave the rest of us to play for the pride of representing our traditional community.
 

coach1530

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Mar 6, 2014
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Hopefully all of this anger is aimed at the system and not at the kids. I for one am looking forward to a great game with good sportsmanship exhibited by both teams and their fans.
 

btango

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Nov 5, 2003
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There is a huge difference between the various charter schools, magnet schools, and schools with magnet programs. To lump them together would probably not be very conducive to the fairness that people are seeking.

Gray Stone Day has students from several counties and is considered one of the top schools in the nation for graduating seniors being prepared for college. Sports is an after thought there. I know some fairly solid athletes that went there and opted to not play sports due to the demands of the curriculum. If the "true" elite academic, open district schools are put into a classification that is fine but to put mini sports factories in is an issue and I point the finger directly at Forsyth County on this.
 

btango

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Originally posted by coach1530:

Hopefully all of this anger is aimed at the system and not at the kids. I for one am looking forward to a great game with good sportsmanship exhibited by both teams and their fans.
I don't think anyone really faults the kids. I have always found the WSP players to be good kids when I have been at their games. I do not even fault Coach Gould, have a lot of respect for him. System is broken starting at the General Assembly level, DPI, NCHSAA, and several counties with Forsyth County standing out the most right now.
 

bareman

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Jun 23, 2001
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no it's not the kids.....our system sucks!! 10 years back when all this started with Prep running a very good MA team out of its own gym, the phones rang off the hook in Chapel Hill and very knowledgeable people tried to exain to those in charge " here's what's going to happen"....and so be it has...the NCHSAA is just a piece of the puzzle to correct this.....they essentially are just messengers for the board that I think sometimes they hide behind...they know there's a problem...they're adult humans who know right from wrong and in this case, as it has been for years now, know what's going on is dead wrong.....I just don't trust, at all, the people we have making the decisions which effect our student/athletes...and I have 2 of my own that are on the doorstep of playing HS sports....sad to know that this is what they have to look forward to...
 

btango

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Nov 5, 2003
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I have had direct conversations with NCHSAA admin and they had an issue with Bishop and WSP. One was pretty straight forward and said that they had no business in 1A sports. The other said that the board had looked at it before and would again.

The Bishop issue came to a head with the vote a few years ago but I am glad that it did not pass. That was a cowardly way for that to be handled! The coach that pushed for it was from a county that has had major issues with out of district players, Rowan County, and he won state football titles with the best player on the field from outside his district. That was the leader of the coup.

As I have written before Charlotte Catholic was welcomed to the 4A ranks by Meck County schools. They like having them. Cardinal Gibbons voluntarily moved up to 4A but they are now at 4A numbers and both the outgoing and incoming conference members all supported the move.

Bishop has offered to move up but the NCHSAA has said they think Bishop is the tip of the ice berg. Personally I think a higher power, Raleigh politicians and local politicians, have some influence as to what they may do if a drastic move is made. If you move up Bishop you have to look at Forsyth County. Personally, I think a law suit by the members of their conference would be the starting point but that has ramifications if they lose. The other idea would be to work together with the NCHSAA and request a solution and push it by getting the local state reps, school board, and country commissions/city councils involved.
 

Dosso

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Mar 25, 2008
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McGuinness advantage is no better than charter schools and in fact probably tougher because of the really high tuition. Charters have a lottery but only if that grade is full which for many, not all but for many, that never happens. So the point I am making is that any restrictions or rules applied to McGuinness have to be and will be applied to charter schools also. That is where the problem is going to be. Trying to convince legislators to make their charter schools do what they don't want to do. Let's pretend for a second that most politicians outside of rural areas have 1A high school sports competitive advantage at the top of their list of things to worry about. I said let's pretend that they do. The Gen Assembly Members in power at the state level apparently could care less about small traditional public schools and seem to be in love with charter and private schools. And to be consistent with other states that have a multiplier which would move a school like McGuinness to 2A and not 3A or 4A, you would have to remove the transfer rule to be consistent with other states using a multiplier, and the 2A would want no part of McGuinness without a transfer rule. And as of right now, let's face it. McGuinness is not going to be winning the state basketball championship in the forseeable future with WSP and Atkins and a few others. Their golf team won't be a power after this spring. So will anyone care as much about them as you will the Magnet that is WS Prep. Nobody says anything about this topic outside of basketball season so that is clearly where the issue lies. And WSP is a part of the traditional public school system. They will not be able to do anything about Magnets. WS Prep is no different in their ability to get kids than the other Forsyth County Schools, and you can't single out one school in the system for special treatment. I am not defending WS Prep, but I am just making the point that I don't see how you think you will be able to do anything about them other than putting McGuinness and Charters into a seperate playoff when it comes time for State Playoffs, but I still don't see how you will be able to put Magnets in there.
 

Deana_King

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May 31, 2001
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4 1A schools in Forsyth right now, but we know Walkertown will be moving up.

Take a look at the other most populated counties in NC. How many boundary 1A schools are in Mecklenburg, Wake, Guilford, Cumberland, Durham, Buncombe, and New Hanover?

None. There are some charters in Wake.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

Dosso

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When you say boundary schools, I assume you mean traditional public schools. We have pretty good evidence that not all traditional schools are boundary schools. There is a difference between say Alleghany who is absolutely a boundary school and certain other traditional schools that have gotten kids who live in other counties including non-Forsyth 1A traditional schools who have gotten kids who live in Forsyth County.
 

Deana_King

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For example in my county, you have to live in Yadkin to attend Yadkin Schools. Nobody from Surry, Wilkes, Elkin can attend unless their parent teaches in Yadkin.

Across the river in Elkin, parents in Wilkes, Surry, and Yadkin can pay a fee and attend Elkin City Schools.

I was just pointing out that there are differences with every school district.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

btango

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Originally posted by Dosso:
McGuinness advantage is no better than charter schools and in fact probably tougher because of the really high tuition. Charters have a lottery but only if that grade is full which for many, not all but for many, that never happens. So the point I am making is that any restrictions or rules applied to McGuinness have to be and will be applied to charter schools also. That is where the problem is going to be. Trying to convince legislators to make their charter schools do what they don't want to do. Let's pretend for a second that most politicians outside of rural areas have 1A high school sports competitive advantage at the top of their list of things to worry about.
I agree totally with this. I have always thought that the Parochials actually have more and tougher restrictions than any other schools. I have always thought that a requirement to have been a member in good standing with in the Church should be a requirement to play on the Parochial teams. Not sure how to determine that but I would think the three Parochial schools could figure it out.

I do think the NCHSAA should go to a 365 athletics set out for true "transfers" after day one freshman year. I also think it should be illegal to play the same sport for two different schools in the same school year unless there is a true change of residence and the season has not reached the half way point.
 

Dosso

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Mar 25, 2008
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The priest for the churches of the dicoese to which McGuinness belongs must actually sign a form saying that the family are members in good standing in order to get the Catholic tuition rate which I think is around $9,000. In fact, I think that is the actual terminology they use. They don't sign it until they check to see how much money you are giving and what things in the church you volunteer for. They won't sign it otherwise. That is how it works for McGuinness and their feeder schools. They all belong to the same diocese and are run by the same diocese. And then if you don't have the form, you pay the non-Catholic rate which is at least a few thousand more. So they have on file who is a member in good standing because that is how they determine if you pay the Catholic rate or non-Catholic rate. I am sure that is why there is only a small percentage of non-Catholics who attend the school.

This post was edited on 3/10 3:56 PM by Dosso

This post was edited on 3/10 3:57 PM by Dosso
 

bareman

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Jun 23, 2001
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Bishops run in girls basketball is over for now IMO.....but the charter and magnet deal is a different fish fry.....basically one would hope that eyes will open and division come playoff time will occur....but it's also the "country club" sports with Bishop that people fuss about...it's just not a loud conversation so to speak
 

btango

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Originally posted by Dosso:
The priest for the churches of the dicoese to which McGuinness belongs must actually sign a form saying that the family are members in good standing in order to get the Catholic tuition rate which I think is around $9,000. In fact, I think that is the actual terminology they use. They don't sign it until they check to see how much money you are giving and what things in the church you volunteer for. They won't sign it otherwise. That is how it works for McGuinness and their feeder schools. They all belong to the same diocese and are run by the same diocese. And then if you don't have the form, you pay the non-Catholic rate which is at least a few thousand more. So they have on file who is a member in good standing because that is how they determine if you pay the Catholic rate or non-Catholic rate. I am sure that is why there is only a small percentage of non-Catholics who attend the school.
I am aware of this. My statement, "not sure how to determine that" is based on how much time should be required for the student to have been a member of the Church before being allowed to play. If they go over the week before freshman year starts do they get to play sports as sophomores would be the question. More stringent "district" rules were put in place a few years ago but I have always thought if you attend and play for a Catholic school you should be attending Catholic church and not just at the last minute so you could play sports.
 

mbdfan

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Mar 17, 2007
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As long as Forsyth County is open enrollment every school in the county should be forced to play at the 4A level. We'd see how well that goes down before some changes are made in their policy.
 

kingbluedevil

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Apr 2, 2014
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I would not want to be a coach in forsyth county. If you piss off a few players or parents all they do is transfer and you have no team. Have to recruit to have a fighting chance.
 

Dosso

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Mar 25, 2008
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I would be surprised, knowing who all has been on their teams, that they have any last minute converts to Catholicism. Nobody is getting that form signed unless they have been members giving money to the church for quite some time. The priests could care less about McGuinness Sports. Agree that being a coach in Forsyth must be like having to be a D 1 college coach in some ways having to cater to the whims of teenagers to win enough to keep your job.
 

coach1530

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Mar 6, 2014
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I have kept up with High School Basketball in Forsyth County for a while. Can you provide some evidence of players transferring from school to school?
 

btango

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Nov 5, 2003
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Originally posted by coach1530:

I have kept up with High School Basketball in Forsyth County for a while. Can you provide some evidence of players transferring from school to school?
Just to make this clear, the 1A schools have a concern with the extended boundary for Bishop, the county wide boundary for WSP, and the multi-county districts for charter schools.

The smaller schools having students come from outside the district is concerning. If a student athlete and his family / guardian vacate a primary residence and establish residency in another district that is not an issue unless there are illegal circumstances involved.

It is my understanding the WS Parkland wrestling program is basically making the move to West Forsyth.
 

coach1530

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Mar 6, 2014
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Yes, seriously. Can you name names? Or is this just another blind allegation by someone who really doesn't know. At one time RJ Reynolds had players transferring in, but that was in the 90's. The Hatfield twins transferred into Mt. Tabor from Davie Co. Hollingsworth transferred into Prep from Glenn after a knee injury caused him to miss his Soph. year. So, yes seriously.
 

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