To the NCHSAA- an open letter.

[72 State Champion]

OldMaroonDevil-
Under one premise, or word game as you say, you are absolutely correct.
We use the phrase regarding dual 3A champs,"either they were all state champs, or none of them were". You can't have it both ways when they didn't play each other.
But that is EXACTLY what the current NCHSAA does now. They grant "state champion" status to the 3A class teams that won under THEIR banner, yet segregate same year 3A WNCHSAA titles as not.
That is the core issue of this letter.
Another premise, and a more positive one, is that all public school association championships won in the "state" of North Carolina CAN BE TERMED "STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS".
Regardless of which association it was won in.
That SHOULD BE the way they are referenced as it is positive, all inclusive, represent the full playoff success as allowed, and interestingly sets up the inclusion of the 2017 champions where 1A and 4A with byes and reduced fields varies substantially with the 2A and 3A formats. They are not the same playoffs.
Thus the timing of this letter.
Easy for the current merged NCHSAA to administer.
Make the change.

 

[ocdavis31]

There has been a lot of talk recently of the “Power Five” conferences splitting from the NCAA. If that happens, will there be a college football “national champion”? There may be an NCAA champion, and maybe a Power Five champion. But could either claim to be legitimate national champions?

 

[recycled2]

recycled2-
If the shoe was on the other foot, you would not be such the comedian.
Nor a hypocrite, perhaps.
Many of your fellow 1A posters support us.
We thank them.

Not being a comedian, they have the same claim you offer up, “they went as far as they could go.”

 

[recycled2]

There should be nothing wrong with calling a championship an "NCHSAA championship" or a "WNCHSAA championship," but certainly before 1972 or maybe 1977, especially in 2A/3A, true state championships (in the sense of involving all eligible teams) didn't exist. People can call them anything they want, but the fact remains that championship games were not played that involved everybody who might have a legitimate claim to play. Calling anybody else a "state champion" is playing word games. Sad, in a way... it'd really be nice to know who really was the best team from every year of that era. But we'll likely never know this side of Heaven, if we all get there.

Exceptional post!

 

[recycled2]

Why not take it another step, can these teams and every team (regional or state champion claim a national championship?

 

[CHEERDUCK]

Exceptional post!

There should be nothing wrong with calling a championship an "NCHSAA championship" or a "WNCHSAA championship," but certainly before 1972 or maybe 1977, especially in 2A/3A, true state championships (in the sense of involving all eligible teams) didn't exist. People can call them anything they want, but the fact remains that championship games were not played that involved everybody who might have a legitimate claim to play. Calling anybody else a "state champion" is playing word games. Sad, in a way... it'd really be nice to know who really was the best team from every year of that era. But we'll likely never know this side of Heaven, if we all get there.

I agree with your post. I also feel the NCHSAA can not call their champions for the years 1930-1977 "State Champions" if all schools in the state were not included in their playoffs.

Any team that played and won their championship. going as far as their playoff system allowed are champions, IMO. During many of the Championship seasons Hickory High won, their team was ranked #1 in the state by the Greensboro News paper,as it was the highly acclaimed "authority" in the state during those years. Of course polls are never accurate, but if that's the only measure of excellence you could use at the time.

Most of us old WNCHSAA fans will always agree and claim the Championships as earned.I for one don't claim them as State Championships, but will never back down on the fact they were well earned and deserved championships.

 

[72 State Champion]

CHEERDUCK-
What you say is the heart of this issue.
The current merged NCHSAA DOES term their 1930 to 1976 3A champs "State Champions".
They do not recognize WNCHSAA champs that way.
Can't be both. Go positive.
The were both association Champions in the "State" of NC.
State Champions
Solves the debate. Who gets hurt? What is the down side?
Make the change.

 

[recycled2]

One major difference at that time, schools could join the nchsaa. Not all schools could join the WNCHSAA.

It is funny on that your attempt to gain more recognition for these teams you are in essence making their accomplishments less. You are basically saying that what they accomplished is not enough. That it is necessary they be recognized as more. You are wrong. What they have done is great, they should be honored for that.

 

[BK13T-$]

1a played all 1a schools in the late 60s. 1 champ.

 

[The Lake Man]

Thomasville will continue to list its1964 championship in our record book and on the scoreboard, along with the other seven state championships. The NCHSAA doesn’t list a lot of Thomasville’s records, including the accomplishments of Coach Allen Brown. Don’t assume this is only about Shelby. And obviously, just because the NCHSAA doesn’t recognize it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Their whole record book has a big asterisk beside it.
Coach Brown still has his 331 wins at Thomasville no matter what.

Thomasville should list this as a championship, but it's not a state championship. Sorry.

 

[The Lake Man]

I agree with your post. I also feel the NCHSAA can not call their champions for the years 1930-1977 "State Champions" if all schools in the state were not included in their playoffs.

Any team that played and won their championship. going as far as their playoff system allowed are champions, IMO. During many of the Championship seasons Hickory High won, their team was ranked #1 in the state by the Greensboro News paper,as it was the highly acclaimed "authority" in the state during those years. Of course polls are never accurate, but if that's the only measure of excellence you could use at the time.

Most of us old WNCHSAA fans will always agree and claim the Championships as earned.I for one don't claim them as State Championships, but will never back down on the fact they were well earned and deserved championships.

I agree up to a point with you, but for different reasons that has nothing to do with the WNCHSAA. North Carolina was segregated for most of the WNCHSAA's existence. The historically black schools were not allowed into the NCHSAA until the 1960's.

That, however, is not true about the WNCHSAA. The WNCHSAA schools chose to play outside the NCHSAA. Not all schools could join the WNCHSAA schools either. Essentially the eastern half of the state were shut out from the WNCHSAA. The WNCHSAA schools, however, were allowed to play in the NCHSAA. They simply elected to instead play in a regional association.

 

[ocdavis31]

Thomasville should list this as a championship, but it's not a state championship. Sorry.

That's interesting, because the NCHSAA, from 1961-1971 did not have 3A state champions, but only had eastern and western regional champs. They list those as co-champs "when that was as far as a team could advance". Sound familiar?
We'll just have to agree to disagree and we'll still 1964 as a state championship. I frankly have very little respect for their association's feeble and inaccurate attempts at recordkeeping.

 

[btango]

That's interesting, because the NCHSAA, from 1961-1971 did not have 3A state champions, but only had eastern and western regional champs. They list those as co-champs "when that was as far as a team could advance". Sound familiar?
We'll just have to agree to disagree and we'll still 1964 as a state championship. I frankly have very little respect for their association's feeble and inaccurate attempts at recordkeeping.

I think those "co championships" should be Western and Eastern Regional titles. Co-champions only for two teams that played to a tie prior to the overtime rule.

 

[btango]

Regarding record keeping. I would write a letter to the NCHSAA and send it to the Thomasville superintendent, principal, and AD as well. List the numbers and records that are omitted and what list they should be added to.

The all time lists have not been kept up for several years and in some cases information is incorrect or just not there. Several performances I know of are not tabulated correctly (TD Responsibility) or the performance is not on the list. In some cases the performance is correctly placed on one list which also qualifies it for another list that the performance is not listed on.

 

[ocdavis31]

I think those "co championships" should be Western and Eastern Regional titles. Co-champions only for two teams that played to a tie prior to the overtime rule.

I believe you’re right, btango. I took that information from their record book, but they list the co-champion information on the same line as the regional champ information and it’s a little confusing.
Guess that means we had no 3A state champs during that time frame. As I’ve said repeatedly, either there were no stamp champs, or there three regional champs. I can live with that. But apparently the association feels that the regional champs are state champs since they played as far as they could.

 

[ocdavis31]

Regarding record keeping. I would write a letter to the NCHSAA and send it to the Thomasville superintendent, principal, and AD as well. List the numbers and records that are omitted and what list they should be added to.

The all time lists have not been kept up for several years and in some cases information is incorrect or just not there. Several performances I know of are not tabulated correctly (TD Responsibility) or the performance is not on the list. In some cases the performance is correctly placed on one list which also qualifies it for another list that the performance is not listed on.

Thanks. You may remember that ITJ and one other poster did just that. Hasn’t changed anything.

 

[BK13T-$]

He is not getting the response he was wanting

 

[btango]

Thanks. You may remember that ITJ and one other poster did just that. Hasn’t changed anything.

They should look at getting some interns from UNC to work on the lists. The only issue is most young people will not be able to navigate through things as easily as us old timers or non sports folks will not understand the concept that passing for a TD does NOT count as a scored TD for the QB.

I actually had the national record book amended in 2001 during TA McLendon's TD record run. I had met Brett Law, the correct rushing TD and points leader a few years before. The National High School Federation listed a QB from California, Ron Cuccia, as holding the record followed by two QBs from Texas. The people, student interns and new hires, had counted TD passes and rushing TDs as touchdowns scored and points for the QB. I spoke with a coach and two newspaper reporters in Texas to determine the two Texans numbers. Spoke with Mark Tennis of Rivals and the QB from Cali. Cuccia laughed when I asked if he had scored whatever the number was (144?) TDs. He said he ran and thrown for that many. He played at Harvard and became a doctor. I will always remember this statement, "I played in 39 games in high school. Do you know how many we lost? Zero. That is really the only record I ever cared about." He also told me he could not believe how adults were so into high school sports. I passed his number to a Charlotte Observer reporter who called me back later and told me how great the conversation had been.

I think the NCHSAA has a document that you complete and follow. That may help.

 

[72 State Champion]

Hello everyone.
The NCHSAA board meets this week and we wanted to present our case again on the thin hope they may bother to check prep threads.
As stated before, we have written the NCHSAA directly and were quickly dismissed. We are not going away.
Far be it for the NCHSAA to desire to discover what is on the minds of those of us that support and attend North Carolina high school athletics and pay their salaries.
The boards of each classifications here had comments we will address in our next post.
We have been distracted lately by some big games.

 

[72 State Champion]

Thanks for your support TGT.
Funny how we are the only two here that actually played on State Champion teams that need to be recognized as such.
Mule is so consumed with Shelby hate, he does not realize that, followed to his logical conclusion, none of Reidsville's State Championships from 1930 to 1970 would count in a summary where rival associations prohibit a fully qualified State Champion. He does not realize we are fighting for him, too.
And this cause goes way beyond just Shelby and Reidsville programs.
And as for btango, what is your deal man? You have also shown a disdain for us personally and some how appoint yourself as THE authority on NC high school football history. You have always failed to identify on WHAT authority you speak nor share your resume. What are you hiding?
Your data is presented to purposefully cloud and confuse the discussion, all the while knowing what we are trying to accomplish with this mission.
The last WNCHSAA year had 38 teams, and the NCHSAA 3A had about 90, you say? Yet the NCHSAA 3A title contested was only missing 10% of the state's 3A schools, you say?
Try 30%, or A THIRD OF THE STATE'S 3A SCHOOLS. You know btango, the good ones in the MIDDLE of the state. See what we mean?
So why do you care?
What we are after is just fair and accurate recognition. There were two(2) separate 3A level champions in NC public high schools.
If one is deemed a State Champion, then the other is also.
And everyone wins.
Do you really think a player from a unified classes SINGLE State Champion from 1977 until 2000 is going to protest this correction, as some sort of "everyone gets a trophy" stupidity? Really? Other than 1913 to 1929 champs, those guys had the toughest road.
Wait...we have some of those players around here.
No. They don't care.
Make the change

 

[72 State Champion]

btango-
We are going to go over this one more time, just for you. Real slowly.

From 1930 to 1976, there were two (2) 3A level classes in North Carolina public high schools.
One was in the NCHSAA.
The other was the WNCHSAA.
Using your own numbers, that class in the NCHSAA had about 90 schools in it.
The WNCHSAA had 38 schools in it.
That is all we are discussing here.
90 vs 38.
The 1961 to 1971 "regional champs" years in 3A in the NCHSAA serves no purpose in this debate, other than, as you have done, to be used to somehow defend the decision to term the WNCHSAA as "regional" as well. It has become a "cover your butt" excuse for the NCHSAA.
Meanwhile, we have heard from three players that consider their championships during that 61-71 period as "State Championships". They won all they could under then playoff formats. Why deny them that on a technicality? Who gets hurt?
What about from 1930 to 1960 and 1972 to 1976?
When defining those years, the NCHSAA refers to their 3A champ as "State Champions", knowing full well the existence of a rival association made up of a THIRD of the state's 3A level public high schools.
If one champion is going to be termed a "State Champion" while only representing 2/3rds of the state's schools, then the champion representing the other 1/3rd of the state's schools can and should be termed "state champions", also.
Or neither of them are.
Go tell Reidsville that.

And despite your cheap shot, this affects many schools and players from across the state. We have received support on this from many on this site and others.

Quit making yourself the "State Champions" police.
Leave it alone. Go away.
You have nothing positive to contribute and you cowardly refuse to identify yourself.

 

[72 State Champion]

TGT, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
And a State Champion.
Can you join is at the NCHSAA meeting on Wednesday?
We would love your support.

And Mule, you are free to rant all you want. And with our blessing.
It is fun to watch you contradict yourself. Only you could stretch our post to such nutty generalizations.
You, unlike btango, are a known entity to us. And put in your place by us many, many threads ago. Even those in your own camp ignore you.

 

[recycled2]

Simple facts you want to ignore:

They were not part of the nchsaa by their choice.

They did not defeat representatives of all parts of the state.

You desire for them to be given something they did not earn.

 

[72 State Champion]

Okay recycled. We will humor you.

All the teams that founded the WNCHSAA were originally members of the NCHSAA.
Perhaps you would like to tell us why they left.
The NCHSAA was never some kind of all powerful entity for government control of high school athletics. Do not give it authority it did not possess. It was just an association.
The WNCHSAA members went back into the NCHSAA in the summer of 1976.

The NCHSAA 3A playoffs did not include 1/3rd of the states 3A public high schools. Someone mentioned 13 counties.
So the NCHSAA 3A champ did not play all parts of the state.....either.

We desire that in the above 3A playoff senario, if the NCHSAA recognizes its winner as a "State Champion", then they should recognize the WNCHSAA winner as a "State Champion" also.
Both were earned even though they did not play each other.

Understand?

 

[btango]

The NCHSAA 3A playoffs did not include 1/3rd of the states 3A public high schools. Someone mentioned 13 counties.
So the NCHSAA 3A champ did not play all parts of the state.....either.

NCHSAA 93 counties. WNCHSAA 13 counties. 87 counties had only NCHSAA schools. 7 counties had only WNCHSAA schools. Those numbers may fluctuate by one or two counties due to consolidation and some movement between the two associations through the years.

The WNCHSAA did not list itself as a 3A association but the schools were in the same general range on enrollment numbers although the NCHSAA had schools with larger enrollments due to 2A and 3A having the larger percentage of schools than 1A and 4A. Upon the associations merger some of the WNCHSAA schools requested to "play up" after being listed as 2A schools while some played 2A, Cherryville and Bessemer City.

7 counties of 100 is under 10%.
38 of 338 is over 10%.

 

[btango]

If the NCHSAA wishes to list the WNCHSAA champions as "state" champions that is their decision.

If they wish to remove the word of "state" champions from the NCHSAA 3A titke game winner that is their decision.

If the NCHSAA determines that the WNCHSAA champion will be referred to as "state" champion are all the former WNCHSAA schools going to have "state" added to their WNCHSAA championship trophies? I assure you that not a single one has the word "state" on them.

 

[recycled2]

Doesn’t matter why they left, the point is that they where not part of the nchsaa.

A question for you: should the Dixie youth champion or the dizzy dean champion be recognized as the little league world champion? After all those teams choose not be part of little league and the little league champions didn’t play everyone.

 

[The Lake Man]

Simple facts you want to ignore:

They were not part of the nchsaa by their choice.

They did not defeat representatives of all parts of the state.

You desire for them to be given something they did not earn.

Very correct. The WNCHSAA chose not to be part of the state association. They were merely a regional association with exactly no classifications.