NCHSAA limitations

mbdfan

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The sport will be 7 on 7 flag football before it's over. I've already moved on from the NFL for the way it's trending/changing and I imagine eventually I'll do the same with college and maybe even high school.

They are about to forever ruin college basketball too with the one time transfer rule. Sad to see the direction many sports are taking, it's a cultural shift and I don't think it's something I'm going to be a part of too much longer other than watching family or my kids play in school.

The fact that my high school alma mater isn't going to exist much longer and the grieving I'm already doing over that will probably make the eventual detachment easier.
 
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ocdavis31

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One of Thomasville’s iconic coaches told me a while back that the Bulldogs hadn’t “tackled to the ground” in practice in fifteen or twenty years. Won a few state championships during that time. His reasoning was that the school simply didn’t have enough players to weather the injuries that inevitably occurred. And that he could teach the proper techniques without it. So maybe this isn’t as big a deal as us old folks seem to think.
 

Mhsneer

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That’s what the majority of small schools are doing. It’s interesting though that hall of fame coaches back in the day believed in hitting on Tuesday and Wednesday. Part of the philosophy was that the body like a prize fighter needed to get use to the contact to prevent injuries. If you think back to the 70s-90s I don’t remember all the injuries we have today. I personally attribute that to more cardio work back then, full contact at least in drills and less heavy weight training. The athletes today are bigger and more like power lifters. Back then practice was more like marine boot camp training. I remember doing 50 push-ups and 50 up downs every practice. We also ran 100 yard wind sprints and banks. That was linemen included. If the point is to prevent concussions, then teaching proper form tackling is the most important thing.
 

ocdavis31

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That’s what the majority of small schools are doing. It’s interesting though that hall of fame coaches back in the day believed in hitting on Tuesday and Wednesday. Part of the philosophy was that the body like a prize fighter needed to get use to the contact to prevent injuries. If you think back to the 70s-90s I don’t remember all the injuries we have today. I personally attribute that to more cardio work back then, full contact at least in drills and less heavy weight training. The athletes today are bigger and more like power lifters. Back then practice was more like marine boot camp training. I remember doing 50 push-ups and 50 up downs every practice. We also ran 100 yard wind sprints and banks. That was linemen included. If the point is to prevent concussions, then teaching proper form tackling is the most important thing.
Sounds like we played in the same era, or close. Do you think there were less injuries, or that people played more with injuries?
I remember one of my teammates “getting his bell rung” in practice. The standard at the time was for the coach to ask “how many fingers am I holding up?”. The answer? Apple. He sat out ten minutes and resumed practice.
During a game, our hardest hitting defensive back speared a runner (his usual technique). He got up and went and stood in the other team’s huddle. The trainer had to go bring him off the field. He sat out one play.
As the father of a former high school player, I certainly don’t recommend those methods today. Kids today are bigger, stronger, faster. I really don’t think the hitting is less forceful.
I don’t always like all the rule changes. But if they keep the players safer, I can usually adapt my viewing pleasure.
 
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Mhsneer

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I think both. I saw guys dislocate fingers, shoulders and coaches pop em back in place. There was a guy played basketball with his jaws wired shut from a broke jaw. We had a guy play the same night he had his big toenail removed. Our wedge buster when that was still legal literally knocked dudes out. He went on to play at Gardner Webb.

I do agree with kids are bigger. The hitting isn’t as violent I don’t think, due to some good rule changes. I’m not sure the conditioning cardio wise is as good. And certainly we didn’t know about concussions. I guess being an old turd I can’t imagine a week of practice with only 15 minutes of live contact. Our old high school coach says all the time kids today are so much better until the point of contact. He feels that at the point of contact poor technique and lack of stamina creates some pretty high scoring games.
 

Slasher Killer

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Oh vey that hurt my head to read it.. I get that they are trying to make it safer, but to take away almost all of the time needed to hit during the week does no one a lick of good. Kids won't know how to tackle when it comes game time especially those who are first timers. We all learned all we needed to when I played from Oklahoma and tackling drills on the first day of full hitting every year; it was fun and the guys loved it. Best part was no one got hurt.. you'd get bruises but they always felt good honestly; especially if you went up against someone you didn't like a laid him out. I understand kids getting hurt on stupid plays (I got headbutted all the time my freshman year but thankfully no concussion,) but by taking the time away in which they can learn does no one any good. It's just gonna neglect and deter the overall product.

Now if teams can't even do team periods without hitting then it's gonna be worthless. In order to do team period and learn the other team's playbook for defense you gotta be able to run the play at 100%. Lack of effort from the kids is one thing but not being able to simulate a live play is a major hangnail. The change to the scrimmage rules is awful too. I like the 48 hr wait (we always did it anyways,) but the whole cutting time ideal just screws everyone over. JV's get less time, bench players get less chances, hell even the starters suffer too.

I hate to say it but until we get people who respect Football enough in charge to not ruin it, it's not going to get any bit better. Everything's been bad since she's been in charge.. alignments, rule changes, it's ridiculous. I don't trust these people a lick for anything; they've done nothing but made my area miserable since 2012/13 and it keeps getting worse every year. My confidence level's at 0%.
 

Slasher Killer

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That’s what the majority of small schools are doing. It’s interesting though that hall of fame coaches back in the day believed in hitting on Tuesday and Wednesday. Part of the philosophy was that the body like a prize fighter needed to get use to the contact to prevent injuries. If you think back to the 70s-90s I don’t remember all the injuries we have today. I personally attribute that to more cardio work back then, full contact at least in drills and less heavy weight training. The athletes today are bigger and more like power lifters. Back then practice was more like marine boot camp training. I remember doing 50 push-ups and 50 up downs every practice. We also ran 100 yard wind sprints and banks. That was linemen included. If the point is to prevent concussions, then teaching proper form tackling is the most important thing.
Exactly like how my dad and my uncle described their practices in the 70's. They were two of the hardest workers on their JV team's D and the HC brought them up and used them as scout teamers for the varsity. They were outweighed by at least 100 lbs and took a ton of punishment but it made the kids tougher back then. They were ran really hard and their HC was like a drill Sargent but it did the trick in those days.

In my day we did way more conditioning/cardio but we didn't not hit either. 2010 feels like forever ago to 2019/20 it blows my mind every year. I feel for the kids they can't even enjoy what it was in my day.
 
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Mhsneer

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Exactly like how my dad and my uncle described their practices in the 70's. They were two of the hardest workers on their JV team's D and the HC brought them up and used them as scout teamers for the varsity. They were outweighed by at least 100 lbs and took a ton of punishment but it made the kids tougher back then. They were ran really hard and their HC was like a drill Sargent but it did the trick in those days.

In my day we did way more conditioning/cardio but we didn't not hit either. 2010 feels like forever ago to 2019/20 it blows my mind every year. I feel for the kids they can't even enjoy what it was in my day.
football was invented after the civil war to make boys men. Now we got people who never played the game deciding how it should be played
 
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recycled2

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Here is my 2 cents. No restrictions for the month of August, other than what we have in place. If you have to restrict contact then start it on September 1. In all honesty don't most teams reduce contact once the season starts, especially conference season. The other thing I find interesting is how do they determine if a school abides by the guidelines? My guess is it will fall to the trainers. Overall, I hate it for the players, how exciting will practice be when you get to run no contact drills all day?
 

recycled2

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I think both. I saw guys dislocate fingers, shoulders and coaches pop em back in place. There was a guy played basketball with his jaws wired shut from a broke jaw. We had a guy play the same night he had his big toenail removed. Our wedge buster when that was still legal literally knocked dudes out. He went on to play at Gardner Webb.

I do agree with kids are bigger. The hitting isn’t as violent I don’t think, due to some good rule changes. I’m not sure the conditioning cardio wise is as good. And certainly we didn’t know about concussions. I guess being an old turd I can’t imagine a week of practice with only 15 minutes of live contact. Our old high school coach says all the time kids today are so much better until the point of contact. He feels that at the point of contact poor technique and lack of stamina creates some pretty high scoring games.
Remember the good old days when if you could spit you didn't need water. Pre-practice diet was a handful of salt tables. Some things have changed for the better.
 

PBBear51

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I remember one of my teammates “getting his bell rung” in practice. The standard at the time was for the coach to ask “how many fingers am I holding up?”. The answer? Apple.
I went through a major learning curve when my son started playing football in youth league about six years ago. I hadn't been actively involved in it since the last time I had walked off the field. Took me some major rearranging in MY mind to adjust from what I was taught. After I finally adjusted to the way it is vs. the way it was, I realized that if it will prevent my son from suffering later in life with things like post traumatic arthritis that's been a beast in my life from dislocated shoulders, then I reckon I'm ok. Can't count the times I've seen stars or dots after contact. Remember one time the ref having to turn me around after going to the wrong huddle. Here's the thing, it was nice when I laid the lick that caused someone else to do that, but it sucked when I was the one that got my bell rung.
 
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FB is my Life

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I have coached at a small middle school and have limited live contact for years due to roster size. Concentrate on technique, fit and form for both blocking and tackling. You can get a lot done with hand shields and dummies. I played in the “ old days”, and how we coach today is much better than then.
 
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Slasher Killer

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football was invented after the civil war to make boys men. Now we got people who never played the game deciding how it should be played
It will be nothing but extreme patty cake before too long if there isn't more level headed people in charge. 7 on 7 ball is fun for a gimmick in the summer but a whole season of that just isn't worth it.

Football for me not only introduced me to what I love but it instilled my ability to take life on the chin and keep going as well as my hard fighting will. By taking things away from it it all becomes about conditioning and you just can't learn life lessons from being run to death. Believe me I went through that as well.

I completely support less hitting for schools with #'s issues but if you have enough kids it should be fine and dandy to hit.. that's just me.
 
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ObserveAndReport

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St. Johns’s College in Minnesota dominated D3 for years and hardly ever had contact in practice. Of course, they could recruit kids who already knew how to hit.
 

Sportsnut17

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Guys, I am an old fellow, I remember all the things you are speaking of. Slasher, you are still young. Here is a statistic for you.
NC sees 23% drop in football participation over last decade; NCHSAA participation down overall.

This is about how long you have been out of HS based off your many great post on here. Trust me on this, your parents called your generation soft and your grandfather called his soft and this has been going on for years. I do not know the statistics statewide, but many teams do not have JV teams and a lot that do have numbers that are so low that it scares me when I see them take the field. I willing to bet that most every team that doesn’t have a JV team now had one 10 years ago. I could name a couple in your on conference that didn’t have big numbers on JV. I know of 4A HS in the Triad that didn’t field JV teams last year. Not just a 1A or 2A problem. The concussion issues has scared many people away from football. The improvements in equipment and coaching techniques and officiating has has helped with taking some of the dangers away, but the stigma is still there.

I love this game and do not like to see numbers like the 23% decline. I have stood closer than most at a football game for every Friday for 30 years and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I hope others get to enjoy it like I did for another 30 years, but we have to accept change. Just think what I have seen as far as change in those years.

Sorry for the ramble, just bored from lack of sports and hoping for a football season this fall.

Slasher, always glad to see you post and you always have good points. Actually glad to see all of you post.

OBTW, below is link where I got that headline from and the real alarming thing in that article is overall sports declined.

https://www.highschoolot.com/nc-see...e-nchsaa-participation-down-overall/18594544/
 

new_dawg

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Lots of people are getting up in arms because "it ain't like it use to be." But if you have kept up with trends in practices, etc. over the past years you would see that very little is "like it use to be." Very few schools do two-a-days any more during the preseason. Practices in 100 degree heat are a thing of the past. And very few teams have been doing live contact practices more than one day a week. And you know what? It's still a GREAT GAME and there's nowhere I'd rather be on a fall Friday night than at a high school football game somewhere. I've been involved with this game in various capacities since 1971, and in my humble opinion, it just keeps getting better year after year.

Don't sweat the reduced contact rules...the game will go on!!
 

Thunder_struck8712

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I think people miss the point. Because you did something one way, doesn't make it the right way. Lots of research and thought goes into these decisions.
 

Mhsneer

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I think people miss the point. Because you did something one way, doesn't make it the right way. Lots of research and thought goes into these decisions.
name one single guy that stopped his career at the high school level and developed cte? You can’t find one. You will find very few that made it to college and their careers ended there. It is by in large a pro football long term playing problem.
 

LetsGetIt7

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IMO, and take that for what it is, teams have already been doing this for years. When I graduated in the mid 2000’s, their was contact the 1st couple of days we could have it, then maybe a day of it on the open week. Live contact in practice has been eliminated long ago, because as we know coaches tend to be control freaks and they cannot control any injuries in live contact. Everything is to a thud or a wrap up and nobody goes to the ground. Linemen spend more time on a sled or with shields, backs through a blaster or drills. They can still accomplish the same things with or without contact. Also, I believe teams are either gonna be physical or they aren’t, this isn’t something that is taught, either the players already have that mentality or they will never get it. The amount of contact in practice will not change that. Sorry if I have rambled.
 

ocdavis31

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Like Coronavirus, with concussions and CTE, there are more questions than answers. CTE is one of the most serious, but not the only effect of repetitive concussions. The science is relatively new and, unfortunately, CTE can only be ascertained after death.
For every study like this, there are five that say the opposite. Most are very small samples.
What most medical professionals now agree on is that the longer a player participates, the more likely that long term results will be negative. At least one study says that the risk of CTE doubles for every 5.3 years played.
So most physicians recommend that younger kids shouldn’t play contact football. Some say they shouldn’t start before 12. Some say 14 or 15. But almost all say 7,8 or 9 is too young for many reasons. A lot of it has to do with neck strength, lack of maturity and understanding of risk, and the weight of a helmet.
I started at 12, as did my son. Not for the above, but for other reasons. Frankly, I’m glad. We turned out fine and enjoyed the experience immensely.
 

Mhsneer

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I’m with you coach all of life is a risk. Car fatalities are higher than cte. It’s best to enjoy life. Sports are risks taken. Do I like bad knees, ankles, and back pain? No would I do it all over again damn right I would. There’s something about competing and learning how be a part of something bigger than yourself. There’s also something about pushing yourself to be the best.
 

ocdavis31

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I’m with you coach all of life is a risk. Car fatalities are higher than cte. It’s best to enjoy life. Sports are risks taken. Do I like bad knees, ankles, and back pain? No would I do it all over again damn right I would. There’s something about competing and learning how be a part of something bigger than yourself. There’s also something about pushing yourself to be the best.
You just gave a whole bunch of coaches a bad rap! Refereed for a bunch of years and coached some little league sports, but coaching is a calling with skill sets way beyond my pay grade.
 

Mitchell county mountie

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name one single guy that stopped his career at the high school level and developed cte? You can’t find one. You will find very few that made it to college and their careers ended there. It is by in large a pro football long term playing problem.
I know of one from Mitchell, Neer. He played thru about 6 concussions and still has problems to this day.
 
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Mitchell county mountie

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that’s one out of how many
Enough with the "back in muh day" rants. Linebackers today are the size of linemen 40 years ago, and faster than wide receivers 40 years ago. You were taking shots from a 190lb kid going 10mph, now its 230lbs going 18mph. Big difference. Also you seem to be forgetting that these are still kids. 16 year olds with the attention span of a 4 year old with man sized bodies. They dont know their own strength, and can inflict some serious damage. They arent getting paid, just out there for the fun of it.
 

Thunder_struck8712

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I get so tired of the back in my day arguement. The world evolves. Things change. I guess when you all played you wanted to the hear the back in my day from someone that wore a leather helmet didn't you?
 

Mhsneer

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Enough with the "back in muh day" rants. Linebackers today are the size of linemen 40 years ago, and faster than wide receivers 40 years ago. You were taking shots from a 190lb kid going 10mph, now its 230lbs going 18mph. Big difference. Also you seem to be forgetting that these are still kids. 16 year olds with the attention span of a 4 year old with man sized bodies. They dont know their own strength, and can inflict some serious damage. They arent getting paid, just out there for the fun of it.
mountie. I’ve watched Mitchell football for 30 plus years. There’s not a player on last years roster at linebacker who’s a ligit 230. John Phillips played linebacker in the 80s. You ever met him? They clocked 40 times back in the day a guy named Greg mcmurray still has the fastest 40 time ever clocked. The school was way bigger back then. The kids were every bit as fast. You ever met Jaime Miller, Travis Pitman, or Jason Jones. That’s 3 linemen on the same team that would be more athletic than any lineman on any team in the 2000s and they weren’t the biggest linemen on those teams. The Elkins kids, brunette and Barnett were just as fast or faster than any kid in the 2000s. Back in the 80s and 90s Mitchell played big boy football. They’re wasn’t any split playoff divisions and teams like Murphy, swain, and Asheville were putting kids in the nfl. Mitchell was putting kids in d1 schools. Kids today weight train differently, but you can’t compare the talent level produced from a school with 800 kids to a school with 500. The training kids do today adds bulk, but not anymore speed and not anymore strength. Now when you talk about college football Alabama/Clemson and 280 llb defensive ends yes that’s different, but Mitchell doesn’t have any of those type athletes and neither does any small school in these mountains. Kids in the 80s and 90s were every bit as strong and fast. There was more of em too at every position. Jonathan Atkins would’ve been unbelievable in high school during any era and so would have those other guys mentioned. Freddy Burleson and mcmurray were faster than anybody you’ve ever seen play in the whc ever. Mcmurray played at N.C. state and was a track star as well.
 
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Squirrel Gravy

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mountie. I’ve watched Mitchell football for 30 plus years. There’s not a player on last years roster at linebacker who’s a ligit 230. John Phillips played linebacker in the 80s. You ever met him? They clocked 40 times back in the day a guy named Greg mcmurray still has the fastest 40 time ever clocked. The school was way bigger back then. The kids were every bit as fast. You ever met Jaime Miller, Travis Pitman, or Jason Jones. That’s 3 linemen on the same team that would be more athletic than any lineman on any team in the 2000s and they weren’t the biggest linemen on those teams. The Elkins kids, brunette and Barnett were just as fast or faster than any kid in the 2000s. Back in the 80s and 90s Mitchell played big boy football. They’re wasn’t any split playoff divisions and teams like Murphy, swain, and Asheville were putting kids in the nfl. Mitchell was putting kids in d1 schools. Kids today weight train differently, but you can’t compare the talent level produced from a school with 800 kids to a school with 500. The training kids do today adds bulk, but not anymore speed and not anymore strength. Now when you talk about college football Alabama/Clemson and 280 llb defensive ends yes that’s different, but Mitchell doesn’t have any of those type athletes and neither does any small school in these mountains. Kids in the 80s and 90s were every bit as strong and fast. There was more of em too at every position. Jonathan Atkins would’ve been unbelievable in high school during any era and so would have those other guys mentioned. Freddy Burleson and mcmurray were faster than anybody you’ve ever seen play in the whc ever. Mcmurray played at N.C. state and was a track star as well.
That's all well and great that there used to be better athletes at Mitchell than there are now, but the point that high school athletes today are physical freaks compared to the days that existed before the rise and spread of modern weight training still stands. It's a similar scenario with the college and pro ranks. Today's athletes at all levels are much more capable of inflicting injury on other players than they used to be.
 

Mhsneer

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That's all well and great that there used to be better athletes at Mitchell than there are now, but the point that high school athletes today are physical freaks compared to the days that existed before the rise and spread of modern weight training still stands. It's a similar scenario with the college and pro ranks. Today's athletes at all levels are much more capable of inflicting injury on other players than they used to be.
so, Carl Pickens played in the 80s and Leonard Little played in 90s weren’t as big and strong as kids in wnc today? They were slow compared to the athletes of the 2000s and really weak. I guess Herschel Walker would just get his ass handed to him in today’s college football. Walter Peyton wouldn’t have stood a chance in today’s nfl. You gotta think sports in the 80s and 90s were way more violent than today. The whole 85 bears defense would’ve been kicked out of today’s nfl. The 80s era Miami teams were unreal college football teams. Those defenses would’ve been dominant in any era. Bo Jackson just better be glad he didn’t have to play against y’all millennials. Deon sanders couldn’t have kept up with today’s college wideouts. Joe Montana better be glad he played way back then he’d been lucky to have started in high school with todays superior athletes.
 
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PBBear51

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so, Carl Pickens played in the 80s and Leonard Little played in 90s weren’t as big and strong as kids in wnc today? They were slow compared to the athletes of the 2000s and really weak. I guess Herschel Walker would just get his ass handed to him in today’s college football. Walter Peyton wouldn’t have stood a chance in today’s nfl. You gotta think sports in the 80s and 90s were way more violent than today. The whole 85 bears defense would’ve been kicked out of today’s nfl. The 80s era Miami teams were unreal college football teams. Those defenses would’ve been dominant in any era. Bo Jackson just better be glad he didn’t have to play against y’all millennials. Deon sanders couldn’t have kept up with today’s college wideouts. Joe Montana better be glad he played way back then he’d been lucky to have started in high school with todays superior athletes.
Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, William Perry, and Mike Singletary.
 

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