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It's Time To Change The Process

mrhonda

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Nov 12, 2012
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To all NCHSAA football coaches: It's Time To Change The Process. The current method of seeding teams for the football playoffs is ridiculous! The method of having teams eligible for and seeded in the playoffs by conference finish is flawed. This is especially true for split conferences. With doing my ratings the last few years, one of the advantages I've had is receiving feedback, both positive and negative on those ratings.

One of the things I've heard over and over is that all conferences are not equal. I agree! This is one mistake the NCHSAA makes. It assumes all conferences are equal. They are not. Just because a team, in a split conference, was a top finisher among teams for its class, for example, McDowell, Mooresville or Lake Norman, doesn't automatically make them a top team worthy of a playoff spot. Lake Norman falls to Independence 31-0. Mooresville falls in the first round to a mid level Myers Park team. I won't even address McDowell. Granted, Mooresville and Lake Norman have had some success in the playoffs, especially Lake Norman last season. I'll get to that later.

Then in 4AA West, you have a game worthy of a regional final, or even a state final, being played in the second round...Mallard Creek and Butler. I'm sure some are getting tired of me repeating myself. But, some things need repeating. East Forsyth has gotten a pass with the bracket they are in. For example, they played a lower level Olympic team in their playoff opener. Now, they get to play Independence, a team that is down this year. Then, They'll either player a mid-level Myers Park team or a West Forsyth team they beat by three points during the regular season. This is the same West Forsyth that was fortunate to get by North Meck, AT HOME, in the first round. This is going on while Mallard Creek and Butler, who both could be state final worthy, meet in the second round!. Then you have Hough, who won the MecKa also in the bracket along with ArdreyKell.

This idea of having a draw to determine a top seed is ridiculous! This is no way of determining a top seed. The NCHSAA is supposed to be rewarding teams, but some teams are not rewarded. Butler and Mallard Creek, every year play top notch teams on their schedule. They even play each other. Mallard Creek plays arguably the toughest schedule in the state. They were only 7 points away from an 11-0 regular season record. And this is with injuries they've had. They're rewarded with a 6 seed. A two time defending state champion, playing the toughest schedule in the state, as a sixth seed. Now, the problem here even with my argument, is that Mallard Creek suffered those two losses. All the while a team like East Forsyth cruises with a lesser schedule and gets a top seed.

Hough, who beat that same Mallard Creek team, and who won arguably the toughest 4A conference in the state, gets a 2 seed. The message here is obvious. Under the current system, who you play means nothing, other than your conference opponents. So, teams are encouraged to soften their schedules.

Regarding East Forsyth, some will mention Page and how they had a very good team and won the title in 2011. The key difference here is, Page ran a gauntlet in winning that title. They beat both Butler and Mallard Creek, back to back, to win that title. East Forsyth is not required to do anything of the sort this season. My observation is this. I'll say it ahead of time, before East gets a chance to play a top Charlotte team and maybe upset them, and it won't be said this Charlotte guy is spewing sour grapes. Ever since 2012, when coach Willert of East talked about some the calls that went against his team in Charlotte, when they lost to Butler, it just so happens, East "won" the draw for the number one seed. At least last season and this one. I'm sorry, the law of probablity doesn't work that way. I'll go ahead and say what others think, but may not say. I'm not sure the so called "draw" is unbiased, especially when it pertains to Charlotte teams. They remember Tom Knotts and the dominance of Independence. They know all about the ridiculous accusations of recruiting. I think it's their way of "leveling the playing field". In other words, their way of punishing success.

What's the solution? Some sort of rating scale, to rate the teams. Eliminate the current conference finish set up and rate teams according to their rating. This is done in other states and can be done in North Carolina. So what if a McDowell's rating is so low they don't make the playoffs. Well, if they finish 4-5 or 3-6 in a split conference with 3A teams, they shouldn't make the playoffs. The same should hold true for a Mooresville or Lake Norman as well.

Either keep the regional format or eliminate it. Either way, use a rating scale, rating the teams from 1 to 32 or 1 to 16 in a regional format. But, this process of conference finish and "draws" for top seeding has got to go.

The kicker here is the coaches. The coaches have to initiate the change. But, I don't think a coach Willert from East or Coach Snow from West, would want to be a part of that. Neither would many other coaches from outside of Charlotte, They hear and read things too. They want that playing field leveled, in their minds.

So, the Charlotte teams will have to deal with it. But, I will say this. Let East play the schedule they played. Let them play in that easier bracket. But, if/when a Mallard Creek, Butler or Hough come rolling into town, and there's a 75% chance of that happening. Who's going to be more ready for adversity? An East Forsyth team, who played teams like Olympic or a Butler, who fought through team suspensions, a Mallard Creek who barely lost on the road to Byrnes, beat McDonogh with injuries and played in arguably the toughest conference in the state or Hough, who beat Mallard Creek and won that same conference?

East may have some physical talent. But, the mental side will definitely be in favor of a school from Charlotte. That was obvious last year from East's meltdown against Providence.
 
Why don't you just have the state set up a bracket for all Charlotte area teams? That way only "worthy" teams would even have a chance to win a STATE championship.
 
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Cmon WTBCH. I live in Charlotte, but am not from there. There are teams worthy besides just Charlotte teams.
 
Bottom line is to win all your conference games. This process is no difference it might have been in the old days. In the old days the number 1 seed played say the number 3 seed in another conference. You knew who that was, but if say MC became the #3 seed and the Meck Conference was paired with EF conference, then they could have met in first round.

Believe me, In 1992 we lost one game and became a number 3 seed and went on road and wore everyone out on route to state champs. And we were runner up the previous season.

One year Cummings had to forfeit all their non conference games -0-6 and they won the rest to when state.

This is no difference than back when Richmond and WC or INDY with knotts, were always going to be undefeated. Everyone waited on the draw to see who would have home field in the championship game.

It is no way to judge when EF conference is great. They beat Reagan, that almost pulled off K-town, West Forsyth did beat NM, so EF beat them and Page won, NW beat Garner and SouthWest blew out Wataga. These were all of EF opponents.

If you are good enough and the team to win it all, then win them all. You shouldn't just want the one team to beat. MC, Butler or Hough, which barely beat SM with a KOR, will come out of brackets. We will see if EF is there waiting and then you can go there and present your case.

Tom Knotts never complain, they just won 109 straight.
 
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That was a LONG read...but for the most part I agree with you.....the seeding process is a total joke now. For some teams, the first two rounds are a repeat of their conference season.
 
1-32 and no east and west plus lower the importance of conf champs especially in split conferences. adding strength of schedule would be very easy. sc does it.
 
1-32 and no east and west plus lower the importance of conf champs especially in split conferences. adding strength of schedule would be very easy. sc does it.

I do not like SC's because it penalizes a school that plays a school in a lower class. So, Crest would lose points for playing Shelby if they were in different conferences.

I do think in big 4A you could seed state wide but that would not work in any other classification.

The split conference champion needs to win the conference outright if they are from the larger classification in the conference. If not, they should be seeded on their overall conference finish.
 
Bottom line is to win all your conference games.

Catholic, for example, DID win all of their conference games...and every other game they played this year as well. So did Scotland. However, the #1 seed in the 4A West did not, and Catholic then ended up as a #3 seed and drew a Vance team that spent a big chunk of the year ranked in the top 10 in the state in the 1st round. Who did the non-undefeated #1 seed draw and how tough was their game?

Tom Knotts never complain, they just won 109 straight.

Tom Knotts complained more about the seeding process than anyone else in the state did while he was here. He even suggested some seeding changes to the NCHSAA, such as if a defending state champ goes undefeated the following year, then they automatically get the #1 seed. Of course, the NCHSAA laughed at him and seeded his nationally ranked teams as low as they could, anyway.
 
The seeding to me is a bunch of crap, you can't tell me it was by luck that Mallard Creek & Butler should be playing in the 2nd round; I think this has happened b4. I personally think we need one 1A,2A,3A,4A champ and bump the big boys up to 5A. Some of these games are crazy. 8-2 71st and to travel 5-7 hours to play 3-8 TC Roberson. It seems like they only want one team per geographic location 4A/4AA (Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston Salem, Durham, Raleigh, Wilmington, Fayetteville). You have Richmond, Jack Britt, Wake Forest Rolesville, and Gboro Page all in the same bracket. That is some Bull$hit! Middle Creek out of the Raleigh area has a cake walk but whomever survives the bottom half of the bracket will win East, the same for Hough, Mallard Creek, and Butler. "Hey Coaches will someone step the H3LL up and voice there opinion about this crap. In the 4A East you have Hoggard by themselves in the East where Scotland Co. Should be! Scotland took Hoggard to the woodshed, but instead they have Scotland in the West; Vance & Charlotte Catholic 1st Rd. AL Brown is OK but Dudley has a cake walk to the Western Final. If your not going to change the way you seed the teams at least be FAIR!!!!!!!!!!! Just my 2¢.
 
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Tom Knotts complained more about the seeding process than anyone else in the state did while he was here. He even suggested some seeding changes to the NCHSAA, such as if a defending state champ goes undefeated the following year, then they automatically get the #1 seed. Of course, the NCHSAA laughed at him and seeded his nationally ranked teams as low as they could, anyway.

You are correct he complained about the seeding but you left out what he always said after his complaint, "it doesn't matter, we are still going to win." He actually told the team on a Monday after they were seeded third, "hey if the other two teams win their games before we play them, we will just whip their ass at their place." Kids went crazy.
 
The seeding to me is a bunch of crap, you can't tell me it was by luck that Mallard Creek & Butler should be playing in the 2nd round; I think this has happened b4. I personally think we need one 1A,2A,3A,4A champ and bump the big boys up to 5A. Some of these games are crazy. 8-2 71st and to travel 5-7 hours to play 3-8 TC Roberson. It seems like they only want one team per geographic location 4A/4AA (Charlotte, Greensboro, Winston Salem, Durham, Raleigh, Wilmington, Fayetteville). You have Richmond, Jack Britt, Wake Forest Rolesville, and Gboro Page all in the same bracket. That is some Bull$hit! Middle Creek out of the Raleigh area has a cake walk but whomever survives the bottom half of the bracket will win East, the same for Hough, Mallard Creek, and Butler. "Hey Coaches will someone step the H3LL up and voice there opinion about this crap. In the 4A East you have Hoggard by themselves in the East where Scotland Co. Should be! Scotland took Hoggard to the woodshed, but instead they have Scotland in the West; Vance & Charlotte Catholic 1st Rd. AL Brown is OK but Dudley has a cake walk to the Western Final. If your not going to change the way you seed the teams at least be FAIR!!!!!!!!!!! Just my 2¢.

The seedings are done correctly by the way they are currently set up. MC and Butler meeting in second round or Scotland to the west are correct. It is the current system in place that needs to be addressed but this is discussed every year about this time. It was the really hot topic when they did the pod system.
 
I do not like SC's because it penalizes a school that plays a school in a lower class. So, Crest would lose points for playing Shelby if they were in different conferences.

I do think in big 4A you could seed state wide but that would not work in any other classification.

The split conference champion needs to win the conference outright if they are from the larger classification in the conference. If not, they should be seeded on their overall conference finish.

Tango that is an easy fix - you always can tweak something. Maybe you give each team one game against a lower division team without penalty. split conferences tough travel your ass 2.5 hours down to charlotte to play. carolina forest in myrtle beach has had to travel as far as Lexington sc to play a region game which is same to what we call conferences. They are getting a pass right now and I can't believe coaches that play in true conferences are letting this happen. anything is better than this except for maybe the pod. lol.
 
I see what you mean Btango, but at the same time you can't penalized a team because of the split conf.
 
I see what you mean Btango, but at the same time you can't penalized a team because of the split conf.
Depends on the teams. Split conferences have upper class and lower class teams.

For the lower class teams, nothing changes. Finish as the highest lower class team...get a #1.

For the upper class teams, though, you would actually have to finish 1st in your conference to get a #1.

The problem this would eliminate is 4A teams who can't even compete against the 3A teams in their conference and finish in 6th place overall...but then get a #1 seed because they are the highest finishing 4A team. What f'd up universe does something like this even make any sense? Well, besides the NCHSAA's f'd up universe, that is.

If you are a 3A team that can't compete in a 4A conference, then no, you should not be penalized and should still be able to earn high seeds.

However, if you are a 4A team that can't compete in a 3A conference, then you don't belong in the 4A playoffs at all, much less with a #1 seed. Those teams should absolutely get penalized. They should all be sitting at home on the couch watching the playoffs, not hosting games during the playoffs.
 
I do agree CC didn't deserve to play us (Vance) in the first round. So to have a no.2 seed n play a team who lost 4 of their 5 losses by 7 pts or less but some of the top teams n north and South Carolina wasn't fair. Now CC may be too beaten up for next weeks game vs a lower caliber opponent. Doesn't make sense...smh
 
To me it doesn't really matter at the end of the year the best of the best, the team who competes will win, despite who they play.


Also East Forsyth was the only team 11-0 Hough was 10-1. So in my opinion east did deserve a number one seed.

And please nobody say triad teams are easy because Olympic was worse than every team east has played so far this season and is the only team to let East score 42 In a half this year. Leave everything as it is, let the kids play and let the best team win.
 
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Used to be every first round game was against somebody pretty good. Now people complain because they get a tough first round game. While I actually agree the seeding process sucks, none of the coaches are going to change the system back and reduce the number of teams that make it to the post season. It's the money, period. Don't know how well the Butler/MC game will be attended but it should be to a packed house. Richmond gets Jack Britt second round. They are probably the two best teams on that side of the bracket too.
 
Unless teams from the east play teams from the west in regular season, computer rankings such as Honda's are absolutely worthless.

There is nothing to make schedules compatable.

For instance The East 4A/3A play nonconference games against non 4A teams because there are no other 4A teams within reasonable distance to play. These teams would be penalized for not playing a tough enough schedule.

Only teams from Raleigh, Triad, or Charlotte would ever make the playoffs or ever have a home playoff gsme.

Mr.Honda sounds like ESPN homers giving the reason why 2 SEC teams should always be in the Round of 4 playoff.

Look at 3A Havelock win the State every year but would not receive a top seed because teirschedule is deemed too soft.

Yes something needs to done about the split conference situation, but making Charlotte the home of football playoffs because you believe they have the toughest schedules is ridiculous.
 
I get the premise of the thread, I really do. Especially as it pertains to split conferences. The seeding in those leagues for playoff purposes creates so much inbalance it's shameful. Regardless taking the split conference issue out if the equation, it doesn't matter who you play non conference, ultimately your seeding is based on your conference finish. So you could be the best 2nd place conference team in the history of the state and nationally ranked but you didn't win your league so you aren't going to get seeded with the 1's even if we all know you are better than some 1's. It is what it is. However these teams who choose to play cupcakes in non conference roll into the playoffs and routinely lose in early rounds but hey that's on them if they feel good about winning 9-10 games a year and lose in the first 2 weekends. They are exactly who we say they are all year while some of these same goons talk about their great record. It's smoke and mirrors, we all know who these teams are year over year. Regardless, we would still bitch if the Nchsaa had a playoff selection committee for each class. Then we'd bitch about the bias towards certain schools, etc. More times than not, the best team usually wins their class or is right there with a chance to win it and loses to an equally deserving team. You will have to beat these teams regardless whether it be round 1,2,3,4 or 5.

Not a fan of East Forsyth at all frankly but you made your argument weaker when you mention their easy path and reference a likely matchup with West Forsyth next round, somebody they've already beat by 3 points earlier in the year. With that logic, why not mention Mallard Creek's "easy" 2nd round matchup against a Butler team they've already beat by 14.
 
The teams that complain are usually the ones looking for a cakewalk because they feel they deserve it, yet their complaint is about the teams that they feel got "their much deserved" cakewalk. Think about it....
 
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GoNtheDistance, let me say, your posts were not that good: They were AWESOME! I totally agree, sooooooooo..... many fans out there wants to boost next year about how far they made it in the playoffs in 2015. No matter what the NCHSAA come up with in seeding, they'll find everything wrong with it. Too, many whinning instead of getting behind their team to beat the team in front of them in each round.
 
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Eliminate split conferences where there are viable options.

In cases where they cannot be eliminated, re-write the seeding guidelines that are creating these absurd situations.

We may never achieve that perfect world but it's worth shooting for. I do remember the days when 2nd place teams had to sweat a coin flip just to MAKE the playoffs. Some years your conference would only receive one bid. A one loss season could find you sitting at home. The expanded playoff have taken us from one extreme to the other, or so it seems.
 
I get the premise of the thread, I really do. Especially as it pertains to split conferences. The seeding in those leagues for playoff purposes creates so much inbalance it's shameful. Regardless taking the split conference issue out if the equation, it doesn't matter who you play non conference, ultimately your seeding is based on your conference finish. So you could be the best 2nd place conference team in the history of the state and nationally ranked but you didn't win your league so you aren't going to get seeded with the 1's even if we all know you are better than some 1's. It is what it is. However these teams who choose to play cupcakes in non conference roll into the playoffs and routinely lose in early rounds but hey that's on them if they feel good about winning 9-10 games a year and lose in the first 2 weekends. They are exactly who we say they are all year while some of these same goons talk about their great record. It's smoke and mirrors, we all know who these teams are year over year. Regardless, we would still bitch if the Nchsaa had a playoff selection committee for each class. Then we'd bitch about the bias towards certain schools, etc. More times than not, the best team usually wins their class or is right there with a chance to win it and loses to an equally deserving team. You will have to beat these teams regardless whether it be round 1,2,3,4 or 5.

Not a fan of East Forsyth at all frankly but you made your argument weaker when you mention their easy path and reference a likely matchup with West Forsyth next round, somebody they've already beat by 3 points earlier in the year. With that logic, why not mention Mallard Creek's "easy" 2nd round matchup against a Butler team they've already beat by 14.


You know Damn well there is absolutely no comparison between Butler & West Forsyth...lol
 
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Nep, you missed my point. I clearly believe Butler is better than most anybody in the state but my point is that we will always bitch about the process because it can't nor ever will be 100% fair to anybody. I used that as an example because it was used to portray East Forsyth Getting an easy draw based on the west Forsyth match up yet the same metric wasnt used for Mallard Creek who is facing a team they have beat already this year by more points in Butler. It's a stupid metric in my opinion but it was used by the poster above which is why I made the point on how subjective it is. Every year, there are teams that benefit from a good draw and teams that get hurt by a tough draw. Truth is, all of the programs that make it to playoffs every year end up on both sides of the coin at some point so it works out. Be the best team every week and you will advance.
 
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@Tango please explained the 71st, TC Roberson situation please....

TC Rob finished fourth in their conference. The three teams in front of them were all 3A. TC Rob qualifies as a number one seed as they were the first place team in their conference. Due to record they were the last conference "champion" to be seeded.
I see what you mean Btango, but at the same time you can't penalized a team because of the split conf.

If a 3A team would have finished behind three 4A schools I do not have an issue with the top placed team from the smaller classification from the split conference getting a number one seed. When the larger classification team does not finish first I do not think they should get a number one seed.

In the case of TC Rob they play in the 3A/4A Mountain Athletic Conference. AC Reynolds is one of the best 3A teams in the state. Second place Erwin lost in the first round of the 3AA playoffs while third place finished North Buncombe did not make the playoffs. Fourth place TC Rob, with two conference wins, got a one seed in the 4A playoffs and McDowell, which had one win over Enka (one win), also made the playoffs 4A playoffs losing to top seed Dudley 54-0.

Too many teams make the playoffs to complain that these two schools should not have made the 4A playoffs. I really do not care about that aspect but there were teams penalized due to a split conference. It was all of the teams that should have been seeded above TC Rob which should have at best been a fourth seed.
 
TGT , mostly on the 2a boards proposed a complete overhaul. Conferences would be geographically drawn up. In essence, all would or could be split conferences. After determining who is eligible, that years adm would determine if you were 1a-6a.

This would elimate 4 or 5 win teams in blowouts the first week.

In the fourth year of an alignment, you are playing off a 6 year old adm. This would eliminate a 4a school playing in a 2a bracket.

This would eliminate a 4 win team seeded as a conference champion.

But the state makes too much off 8 sets of games. No way it will reduce to 6.
 
Just knock off these inter-conference rematches in the 1st round at least. If you looked at the 2A East, 4 conference teams were in the same regional bracket. That's like watching UNC vs NC State in the 1st round, with the winner getting Duke during March Madness.
 
Just knock off these inter-conference rematches in the 1st round at least. If you looked at the 2A East, 4 conference teams were in the same regional bracket. That's like watching UNC vs NC State in the 1st round, with the winner getting Duke during March Madness.
Ok.... let's say they do away with that and seed you with a team 2hrs away, then you'll come back crying/whinning about travel. Some of you are NOT going to be happy no matter what.
 
Most of the teams in the 4aa west bracket are from the Charlotte area so u have to play each other sometime. With the talent that Mallard Creek has they should not have lost any games but they did. I think playing Butler second round is about right. Play hard.
 
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Ok.... let's say they do away with that and seed you with a team 2hrs away, then you'll come back crying/whinning about travel. Some of you are NOT going to be happy no matter what.

THAT'S MY WHOLE BEEF!!!! As a FAN I don't mind traveling somewhere different. In this case, this season, the team I'm following is home anyway. Let's meet a conference foe in the 2nd/3rd or 4th round.
 
THAT'S MY WHOLE BEEF!!!! As a FAN I don't mind traveling somewhere different. In this case, this season, the team I'm following is home anyway. Let's meet a conference foe in the 2nd/3rd or 4th round.
You will. Dont you play Hertford County next
 
Nep, you missed my point. I clearly believe Butler is better than most anybody in the state but my point is that we will always bitch about the process because it can't nor ever will be 100% fair to anybody. I used that as an example because it was used to portray East Forsyth Getting an easy draw based on the west Forsyth match up yet the same metric wasnt used for Mallard Creek who is facing a team they have beat already this year by more points in Butler. It's a stupid metric in my opinion but it was used by the poster above which is why I made the point on how subjective it is. Every year, there are teams that benefit from a good draw and teams that get hurt by a tough draw. Truth is, all of the programs that make it to playoffs every year end up on both sides of the coin at some point so it works out. Be the best team every week and you will advance.

Gotcha! 100%
 
To be the man, you got to beat the man....I always believed that, so I could care less about the road less traveled. You don't see Scotland teeing off with Lumberton in the 1st round do you?
 
You know Damn well there is absolutely no comparison between Butler & West Forsyth...lol

West beat North Meck 14-13
North Meck lost 35-23 to Mallard creek butler lost by 13, west beat a team that lost by 12. So you can compare them, you don't have to agree with what I'm saying but statistically what I'm saying are facts, they are comparable.
 
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