Another non-boundary state title
- Thread starter CP16
- Start date
From the article on the game:
The two teams battled to a 1-1 draw for 110 minutes, including the regulation 80 minutes, two 10-minute overtime periods and two five-minute sudden death stanzas, before going to penalty kicks.
Yep, The only reason they won is the new rule that after four overtime sessions, the tie goes to the non-boundary school.
CP if you don't like competition, go play solitaire.
Think CP got lost on his way to the soccer board since no reason this should be on the basketball board as opposed to the football board or the baseball board.
I always post on the basketball. That's were the biggest problem of non boundaries is located. It's also the quickest way to get a response from the lawyers of the non-boundary group "Slickside" and "Coaches Daughter". What is the purpose of classification in sports? Why have 1A? I would think to give small towns a chance. If you guys do not see you have a advantage your nuts! Your favorite school draws from Greensboro, High Point, Winston Salem, maybe even 1 or 2 from Kernersville plus the rest of the triad. My school draws from a 9 mile radius in a rural county. Sounds fair!
CP.. if you still want to beat the dead horse:
1. As a bishop parent of girls who have played on and won state championships I have ALWAYS said that Bishop has an advantage.
2. They and other "non-boundary" schools are 1A because of the number of students attending that school.
3. "non-boundary" applies to many "boundary" schools because of different transfer, etc policies allowing out of district students to participate in athletics which gives them an advantage as well.
4. If you want to get a rise out of me it's not working but it is fun seeing you so irritated..
This post was edited on 6/2 2:07 PM by 3daughters
1. As a bishop parent of girls who have played on and won state championships I have ALWAYS said that Bishop has an advantage.
2. They and other "non-boundary" schools are 1A because of the number of students attending that school.
3. "non-boundary" applies to many "boundary" schools because of different transfer, etc policies allowing out of district students to participate in athletics which gives them an advantage as well.
4. If you want to get a rise out of me it's not working but it is fun seeing you so irritated..
This post was edited on 6/2 2:07 PM by 3daughters
(1) It's not a dead horse when boundary schools keep being denied a shot at title b/c your allowed to have a advantage. How many non-boundary titles this year in 1A sports? East Carteret lost 2x this year in finals to non-boundaries from large metro areas. When they move you up or make a separate division the horse will be dead. (2) So its okay if we get our students from anywhere as long as we only have below a certain number of them? (3) I would consider them non-boundary as well. If your kids come from outside your attendance zone, play up. (4) Your the one who always has a smart remark or plays lawyer with words. I'm only stating facts. It's currently the biggest problem in nchsaa sports right now.
You sound just like my ex-wife "you play lawyer with your words"...no, sweetie, you're just losing the argument.
Two teams go through regulation and FOUR overtime periods before having to decide the game by penalty kicks. That sounds about as close a competition as there can be. Please explain clearly and unequivocally how boundary v non-boundary decided that title game.
If you don't like competition, you don't belong on the field.
Answer our questions with facts. As I said "slickside" and "daughter" are just non-boundary school lawyers. They take three or four words out of everyone's response and try to be a smart ....
We state facts and ask questions you respond with a smart remark.
How many non-boundary state titles in 1A?
What is the purpose of 1A - 4A divisions? Small towns a chance?
How many towns / population and / and or mile radius do your students come from? Heard a new one this week, one of your top boys golfers travels over a hour /one way to get to Bishop everyday? That's a nice draw. Ours travel about 15 mins max in a rural county.
We state facts and ask questions you respond with a smart remark.
How many non-boundary state titles in 1A?
What is the purpose of 1A - 4A divisions? Small towns a chance?
How many towns / population and / and or mile radius do your students come from? Heard a new one this week, one of your top boys golfers travels over a hour /one way to get to Bishop everyday? That's a nice draw. Ours travel about 15 mins max in a rural county.
Competition is great. I believe the frustration is that the pull from non boundary vs boundary is much higher. Thus allowing them more of an ability to pull greater talent. When you have a great team come through a boundary that is a once in 10 years or more opportunity for that school and district. I am not sure about soccer, but in basketball I believe the frustration is more with WSP than anybody. I have never seen a school from private or public fork out as much D1/D2 talent as WSP has. Its really more ridiculous than anything. I was there watching Albemarle vs WSP and it was a team of allstars vs a really good 1A team. Bishops run on the girls side is incredible to say the least, but you could argue luck on that side as well as last year it took a tremendous comeback in the 4th quarter to win and this year a buzzer beater. Personally I believe schools like Bishop, WSP, and Atkins should be moved up to 2A. If you look how the OHSAA handles schools like St. X, Moeller etc is a great way in dealing with these kinds of schools thats fair to all involved. If you put St. X and Moeller down here in 1A nobody would beat those schools. But with their location in Cincinnati (like WSP and Atkins location WS) its easy through relationships to get the creme of the crop for the targeted families you want.
I personally don't believe that Bishop is not playing by the rules, I believe like Moeller and ST. X etc that they get families who invest strongly in their kids, most parents in these 1A schools can't do because typically they are from poorer areas. Now if you get a great coach in these areas that does the extra work required to develop these kids at an early age and continues to develop the program you can be successful. WSP Bishop and Atkins should be playing up in 2A. That will have to come through the NCHSAA though. Until then I personally love the competition and to be a state champion you must go through the best, so as long as they are playing by the rules, not recruiting, and held to the same rules and regulations as boundary schools. Prepare your teams and battle it out on the court or field. If your coach is not developing your kids, teaching them the game no room to cry about it.
I personally don't believe that Bishop is not playing by the rules, I believe like Moeller and ST. X etc that they get families who invest strongly in their kids, most parents in these 1A schools can't do because typically they are from poorer areas. Now if you get a great coach in these areas that does the extra work required to develop these kids at an early age and continues to develop the program you can be successful. WSP Bishop and Atkins should be playing up in 2A. That will have to come through the NCHSAA though. Until then I personally love the competition and to be a state champion you must go through the best, so as long as they are playing by the rules, not recruiting, and held to the same rules and regulations as boundary schools. Prepare your teams and battle it out on the court or field. If your coach is not developing your kids, teaching them the game no room to cry about it.
Unfortunately for your argument CP that golfer and his family make that sacrifice because of their religion and the fact that there are only 4 Catholic High Schools in the entire state (only 3 before this year). Golf is an individual sport, he is the same golfer whether he attends a 1A school or a 4A school. His parents send him and pay all that tuition not for sports but for the Catholic School education just like I did for my kids. I didn't pay over $100,000.00 in tuition for a couple of championship rings
So he travels a extra long distance to play golf at Bishop. Sounds like a advantage over all 1A schools. 1A tradtional schools can not do this. We have very good coaches in several sports. Can Johnny from Greenville (45 mins away) who likes coach x come play here? NO!!!! Move you up or better yet b/c you pay all this tuton, NC Independent Schools Association would be a great option.
This post was edited on 6/4 1:06 PM by CP16
This post was edited on 6/4 1:06 PM by CP16
If they are paying tuition why aren't they apart of the NCISA? Just asking. However in Ohio you can be part of the OHSAA if you comply with all rules and regulations, also I believe there is a 2 year probation period. I believe they also created a division for these schools which is D5 I believe but not sure. You cant fault the school for a kid driving an hour to attend school there. My complaint with the whole thing is simple, because of the accessible pull you have, not saying that the school is dirty but that school should have to play in a minimal of 2A. You take some of these small rural schools with literally a 5 -10 mile radius and a small population at that, and compare that to a WSP in Winston Salem for example. WSP has an advantage just as Atkins does. Now you take Atkins or WSP and put them in New London or something then you have an argument.
The only answer is to look at the population to decide if you are 1a or 2a maybe in addition to student population, but I do not see that happening. I was honestly surprised that the pod system was taken away, from what I seen 1A schools were highly in favor of keeping it. Guess thats more pull from the Northwest division. I just found that odd. I know Mount Airy was high on getting rid of it do to the midwest pod being brutal and them having to go through WSP or Bishop every year.
The only answer is to look at the population to decide if you are 1a or 2a maybe in addition to student population, but I do not see that happening. I was honestly surprised that the pod system was taken away, from what I seen 1A schools were highly in favor of keeping it. Guess thats more pull from the Northwest division. I just found that odd. I know Mount Airy was high on getting rid of it do to the midwest pod being brutal and them having to go through WSP or Bishop every year.
I don't know bulldog, ask Charlotte Catholic or Cardinal Gibbons since they have been members in good standing of the NCHSAA for over 60 years.
He doesn't drive that distance CP so that he can play golf for Bishop, he drives that distance because he can get a Catholic education that is otherwise only available in Charlotte, Mooresville or Raleigh.
And yes in many cases kids drive more than 45 minutes for the SOLE purpose of playing sports. Twins lived in Denton and played basketball for South Davidson in Randolph County, next year played for Davie County in Mocksville and last year played for Mt. Tabor in Forsyth County, all the while never leaving their residence in Denton. Three public schools in three years and not a negative word on this site because it happens all the time all over the state.
And yes in many cases kids drive more than 45 minutes for the SOLE purpose of playing sports. Twins lived in Denton and played basketball for South Davidson in Randolph County, next year played for Davie County in Mocksville and last year played for Mt. Tabor in Forsyth County, all the while never leaving their residence in Denton. Three public schools in three years and not a negative word on this site because it happens all the time all over the state.
Charlotte Catholic etc are also higher than 1a as well. I believe that is the argument. I know with Albemarle you have to reside in that school district in order to enroll in school there. So in the twins case, I actually heard about this, but seems like they would have had to show proof of residency at some point unless the school was willing to take the risk. Forsyth is a no boundary district right?
In addition I think you are looking at 2 different cases here. You have WSP and maybe even Atkins and then Bishop. WSP is a prep school much like Harmony Prep was in Cincinnati. Harmony was never allowed in the OHSAA though, but seems to be whats going on, also seems like Atkins is following suit, but you cannot say that until they begin come dominant year after year much like WSP is becoming. Bishop seems to have a good youth program which builds your youth program. WSP just seems to be getting PLAYERS haha. Which TEAM WINSTON is having a great aau season.
In addition I think you are looking at 2 different cases here. You have WSP and maybe even Atkins and then Bishop. WSP is a prep school much like Harmony Prep was in Cincinnati. Harmony was never allowed in the OHSAA though, but seems to be whats going on, also seems like Atkins is following suit, but you cannot say that until they begin come dominant year after year much like WSP is becoming. Bishop seems to have a good youth program which builds your youth program. WSP just seems to be getting PLAYERS haha. Which TEAM WINSTON is having a great aau season.
Bulldog, where are you getting your mis-information that WS Prep is a "prep" school like Harmony? WS Prep is a public school just like every other public school in Winston-Salem. It is housed in the old Atkins high school building and was tax payer funded with assistance from the Bill and Melissa Gates Foundation. It is not a prep school or even a charter school but is under the jurisdiction of the WS/Forsyth County School Board.
All your schools of example are 3A or 4A. So Bishop gets kids just like them for the personal Catholic educaton with the brothers and priest. Then Bishop should play up. Your golfer only comes for the education, well then, he comes from so far away, then he should be allowed to pay his $$$$ and go to school but not play sports. I beat he does not stay. If he plays, you play up.
Some points from a article on Charters and 1A. Unfortunately, this is only going to get worse. With so many charters, the only hope is that they create a division for these charters or move them up. You can see if you gave 1A the same advantage you would have more of a competitive platform, unfortunately if you did that there would be no 1a's. A 25 mile radius is crazy.
"The NCHSAA, like any good organization, is never going to willfully
turn away new members, especially when those new members are arriving in
droves like charter schools.
According to a report in the News & Observer,
the State Board of Education has given final approval for 26 new
charter schools to open this fall ? the largest expansion of the program
since the late 1990s.
The number of charter schools in North Carolina has expanded sharply since legislators eliminated the 100-school cap in 2011.
There are now 127 charter schools in the state,
and the number could rise to more than 200 in the very near future. A
total of 71 applications had been received in January to open new
charter schools in 2015. Eleven of those applicants got the go-ahead
from a screening board earlier this month."
"Students at these schools now must meet geographical requirements if
they live in the county where the school is located, live within a
25-mile radius of the school (or a distance established by the system)
or are a member of a parochial church.
Just FYI: A 25-mile radius around Raleigh includes eight other counties, along with Wake County.
A 25-mile radius around Winston-Salem spreads to
almost Greensboro to the east, to Lexington to the south, nearly to
Yadkinville to the west and almost to the Hanging Rock State Park to the
north.
This encompasses an area of, oh, I don't know, about a quarter of a million people.
A 25-mile radius around Davidson includes
Charlotte, the largest city in the state with about three quarters of a
million people.
Compare that to Beaufort (pop. 5,000). You can
add the Down East area to the geographical area that East Carteret can
pull from, and it's still less than 10,000 people."
"The NCHSAA, like any good organization, is never going to willfully
turn away new members, especially when those new members are arriving in
droves like charter schools.
According to a report in the News & Observer,
the State Board of Education has given final approval for 26 new
charter schools to open this fall ? the largest expansion of the program
since the late 1990s.
The number of charter schools in North Carolina has expanded sharply since legislators eliminated the 100-school cap in 2011.
There are now 127 charter schools in the state,
and the number could rise to more than 200 in the very near future. A
total of 71 applications had been received in January to open new
charter schools in 2015. Eleven of those applicants got the go-ahead
from a screening board earlier this month."
"Students at these schools now must meet geographical requirements if
they live in the county where the school is located, live within a
25-mile radius of the school (or a distance established by the system)
or are a member of a parochial church.
Just FYI: A 25-mile radius around Raleigh includes eight other counties, along with Wake County.
A 25-mile radius around Winston-Salem spreads to
almost Greensboro to the east, to Lexington to the south, nearly to
Yadkinville to the west and almost to the Hanging Rock State Park to the
north.
This encompasses an area of, oh, I don't know, about a quarter of a million people.
A 25-mile radius around Davidson includes
Charlotte, the largest city in the state with about three quarters of a
million people.
Compare that to Beaufort (pop. 5,000). You can
add the Down East area to the geographical area that East Carteret can
pull from, and it's still less than 10,000 people."
WOW. Miss a day and miss all kinds of fun. CP, I didn't have a smart remark and you didn't have an answer or state any facts. So I'll ask again:
Two teams go through regulation and FOUR overtime periods before having to decide the game by penalty kicks. That sounds about as close a competition as there can be. Please explain clearly and unequivocally how boundary v non-boundary decided that title game.
First, I believe the Ohio Association private schools do not have a transfer rule. That is a major difference. They can get transfers in from public schools after 9th grade. McGuinness can't. WS Prep and Atkins can. Also, there have been plenty of public schools including 1A schools who can get kids from an hour away if they wanted to. As long as both school boards signed off, a kid could go to a public school an hour away if he or she wanted to at least half of the NC public school districts. Finally, 3 daughters are you just assuming that he is correct in that there is a McGuinness golfer that lives an hour away because I believe it is false that there is anyone on the golf team commuting from an hour away.
In the OHSAA they are dealing with the private vs public school debate yearly. Because of the advantages of privates (including charters etc). For example what the OHSAA does is use a multiplier to determine division. So if you had 400 boys in your school they would use a 1/3 of that number to determine division. In regards to privates they are constructing a resolution now that they would use a high multiplier for example .50. So that those schools would be in a higher division.
In regards to the young man playing golf. To me it don't matter if he is or is not playing golf. His family is paying tuition to Bishop for that right.
I personally have no problem with the privates or charters. What I have a problem with are basketball factories competing against small town high schools. I mean come on you can look at WSP test scores and see plainly that the main focus here is not academics. But yet they are putting out D1 kid after D1 kid. BUT you do have great private and charter schools that are out to offer a alternative to traditional public school education. Not all of these schools are recruiting kids in for sports and actually do a pretty good job.
WSP, Atkins, Bishop should all move up to 2a BUT you can do that for those 3 because they win, and not do it to schools like Queens Grant, Union Academy etc.
I am not going to sit here and complain about Bishop winning WSP winning etc. The way I feel they are in 1A now so in order to win a state title you have to beat the best if you can't you don't deserve to win it. They are in 1A as of right now and for the foreseeable future it looks like there will be more. If you build your program right, and get your players skilled from the youth you can compete. Once your players are competing and executing its up to your coach to prepare them and to make proper adjustments during the game to pull out the win. If it was lopsided throughout the state championship game and these schools were winning the state title every year by 30 then I guess I would have more of a complaint but when they are winning on buzzer beaters and in 4 overtimes, I find it disrespectful to the players competing to cry about it.
The only team I have seen like this is WSP boys, the talent on that team compared to what you see ACROSS 1A is crazy. They will simply reload every year IMHO.
In regards to the young man playing golf. To me it don't matter if he is or is not playing golf. His family is paying tuition to Bishop for that right.
I personally have no problem with the privates or charters. What I have a problem with are basketball factories competing against small town high schools. I mean come on you can look at WSP test scores and see plainly that the main focus here is not academics. But yet they are putting out D1 kid after D1 kid. BUT you do have great private and charter schools that are out to offer a alternative to traditional public school education. Not all of these schools are recruiting kids in for sports and actually do a pretty good job.
WSP, Atkins, Bishop should all move up to 2a BUT you can do that for those 3 because they win, and not do it to schools like Queens Grant, Union Academy etc.
I am not going to sit here and complain about Bishop winning WSP winning etc. The way I feel they are in 1A now so in order to win a state title you have to beat the best if you can't you don't deserve to win it. They are in 1A as of right now and for the foreseeable future it looks like there will be more. If you build your program right, and get your players skilled from the youth you can compete. Once your players are competing and executing its up to your coach to prepare them and to make proper adjustments during the game to pull out the win. If it was lopsided throughout the state championship game and these schools were winning the state title every year by 30 then I guess I would have more of a complaint but when they are winning on buzzer beaters and in 4 overtimes, I find it disrespectful to the players competing to cry about it.
The only team I have seen like this is WSP boys, the talent on that team compared to what you see ACROSS 1A is crazy. They will simply reload every year IMHO.
I understand what you are saying about OHSAA, but what I was saying is that I believe the private schools in the OHSAA do not have a transfer rule like the NCHSAA does for the Catholic Schools, so many of those schools competing against public schools have tons of upper classmen transfer athletes every year like that team Lebron played on. On golf, since golfers are not recruited off their high school teams, I doubt anyone would go to any particular school just to play golf. At least I would hope not. As has been said many times, Bishop offered to go up to 2A in the sports in which they are competitive and the NCHSAA Board said no.
http://www.ohsaa.org/eligibility/TransferBylawGuidance.htm
Once again I don't think Bishop is as much of the issue as WSP, except for the fact the general opinion is they should be 2a but like you said the NCHSAA hasn't acted on it. St. Vincent St Mary, the team Lebron played on was not Division 4 either (compared to 1A here) they are I believe Division 2 ( 3a here). In addition they play against some of the top teams in the state/Nation. As does Moeller, ST. X and Elder.
When you allow private and charters to play vs public schools even regulated as the OHSAA are you will never be able to get away from what we are experience here. The Ohsaa does a pretty good job and I think for privates and charters to have their multipliers raised will help it still won't be a perfect system.
So earlier I read this is a dead horse and it is. I have not seen the NCHSAA even attempt to regulate this other than smoke screening saying your kids have to come from a 25 mile radius when that school is in Winston Salem or Charlotte that still leaves it wide open. I think the only true answer would be is to automatically stick these charters etc in 2a instead of 1a. Atleast then there is an opportunity for these schools to compete with a bigger student population.
So for now 1a's just need toget great coaches who know how to build a program hone in on the skills and fundamentals and make proper adjustments to be able to compete. It will make it that much more special when a traditional finally does climb the mountain. So in the end it is what it is.
Once again I don't think Bishop is as much of the issue as WSP, except for the fact the general opinion is they should be 2a but like you said the NCHSAA hasn't acted on it. St. Vincent St Mary, the team Lebron played on was not Division 4 either (compared to 1A here) they are I believe Division 2 ( 3a here). In addition they play against some of the top teams in the state/Nation. As does Moeller, ST. X and Elder.
When you allow private and charters to play vs public schools even regulated as the OHSAA are you will never be able to get away from what we are experience here. The Ohsaa does a pretty good job and I think for privates and charters to have their multipliers raised will help it still won't be a perfect system.
So earlier I read this is a dead horse and it is. I have not seen the NCHSAA even attempt to regulate this other than smoke screening saying your kids have to come from a 25 mile radius when that school is in Winston Salem or Charlotte that still leaves it wide open. I think the only true answer would be is to automatically stick these charters etc in 2a instead of 1a. Atleast then there is an opportunity for these schools to compete with a bigger student population.
So for now 1a's just need toget great coaches who know how to build a program hone in on the skills and fundamentals and make proper adjustments to be able to compete. It will make it that much more special when a traditional finally does climb the mountain. So in the end it is what it is.
Also Lebron was at St. Vincent St Mary from the time he was a freshman. And went to middle school 6th, 7th, and 8th grade year at Riedinger Middle School
Bulldog....bishop actually helped draft changes that would have required several of their teams (girls basketball and golf) to play up to 2A. We were all stunned (administration and athletic department and basketball players and parents) when it did not pass.
Yeah I heard it was because they didn't want to punish success. HAHA I don't have a issue with Bishop, like I said they should be in 2a I think, BUT they are in 1a. As far as I am concerned they are the team to beat in 1a, atleast until they are downed in the 1a state playoffs. So far they have went 9 years in the state playoffs without losing a game, thats incredible and unheard of. To me as a competitor I want my team to beat them lol. With hard work, dedication, good coaching, anything is possible. BUT I am not one to find a excuse either.
I'm just asking. Why can't there be a 1-A public school championship and a 1-A non-public school championship?
Are there more charters than public in the 1-A?
Do all counties need to go to open enrollment?
Are there more charters than public in the 1-A?
Do all counties need to go to open enrollment?
public and non public playoff will never happen. You could qualify charters as non public as well, I don't see that happening. I believe there were 26 approved to be playing in the NCHSAA this year more expected next year.
Comparing "traditional public school" and private schools are like comparing apples and oranges... Your talking about competition, but the playing field isn't fair. All private schools should have to compete in a private school classification. How Bishop is even allowed to compete in state playoff competition against traditional public schools is almost comical.
Any school that does not draw students from a zoning district has an advantage over all traditional public schools who can only pull from a certain zone or as CP describes a certain boundary. The only way to successfully stop this in 1A athletics or across the state period is converting all county schools to open enrollment. This is what schools in Forsyth County do and if I'm not mistaken I believe schools in Mecklenburg are open enrollment too.
Parents and students are allowed to pick which to attend, once you start that school year,the student athlete must stay there for an entire calendar year before deciding to prefers transfer the following year. If an athlete transfers before that year is completed and does not change residence, then they would be considered ineligible. I don't mind the way Bishop is set up at all... I have a lot of friends who attended school there and got quality educations but to say that the playing field is fair for all 1A schools who have to compete against them just isn't right.
Any school that does not draw students from a zoning district has an advantage over all traditional public schools who can only pull from a certain zone or as CP describes a certain boundary. The only way to successfully stop this in 1A athletics or across the state period is converting all county schools to open enrollment. This is what schools in Forsyth County do and if I'm not mistaken I believe schools in Mecklenburg are open enrollment too.
Parents and students are allowed to pick which to attend, once you start that school year,the student athlete must stay there for an entire calendar year before deciding to prefers transfer the following year. If an athlete transfers before that year is completed and does not change residence, then they would be considered ineligible. I don't mind the way Bishop is set up at all... I have a lot of friends who attended school there and got quality educations but to say that the playing field is fair for all 1A schools who have to compete against them just isn't right.
