Would this High School be King if they moved back to 4A?

Discussion in '4A Football' started by swett2victory, May 31, 2017.

  1. swett2victory

    swett2victory Well-Known Member
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  2. swett2victory

    swett2victory Well-Known Member
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    Crest High School

    Thoughts...
     
  3. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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  4. swett2victory

    swett2victory Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]
     
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  5. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    If Crest numbers returned to 4A level, then yes, they probably would. They have dominated 3A since moving back down in 2001, with Title Game appearances in 01, 03, 04, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 15. Only Northern Guilford has matched Crest with 4 Championships during that time period, and NG has no other appearances.
    But a more compelling and interesting reason as to why Crest, with 4A numbers, would dominate is the ease in which they entered 4A and won big almost immediately from 1991 to 2000. For 23 years from 1968 to 1990, Crest as a 3A program failed to make a Title Game. Yet, after only 3 seasons in 4A, they won the unified 4A State Championship in 1994 and repeated as champs again in 1996.
    How can that be?
    The answer is obvious and is what we have said now for years.
    4A football competition in NC is extremely weak. The weakest by far of all four classifications. And the 4A class has significantly less schools in it. It is not that difficult to make it to the top.
    Nor is it that hard to stay there (see Indy's 7 straight).
    Crest's lack of success in 3A prior to becoming 4A is a clear competition factor also.
    And a case could be made that Crest's success upon returning to 3A in 2001 has been aided by student population and thus classification shifts by other former nemeses.
    It is so obvious to any objective observer.
     
  6. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    If 4a is weak then 3a-1a is pathetic, case closed
     
  7. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    Nice debate....
     
  8. swett2victory

    swett2victory Well-Known Member
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    Would it be fair to involve Scotland or Mallard Creek in this opinion competition?
     
  9. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    Three years? Crest went to 4A in the 1985 alignment. The tenth season in 4A they won the state title. The five years prior to going 4A they were 11-2, 9-2, 10-1, 10-1, and 8-2. The first five years in 4A the record was 5-5, 2-8, 6-5, 5-5, and 4-6. They would repeat the 4-6 before having their first strong season in 4A in 1991 going 8-3. From the opening in 1967 until the 11-2 in 1980 they were not very good.

    After winning the 4A title in 1996 Crest was 11-3, 6-6, and then lost in the first round of the playoffs in 1999 and 2000 with 10-2 and 11-1 records. First year back in 3A they lost in the title game the year before subdividing.

    4A had the same amount of teams as the other classes (1A had less football playing) since the 1985 alignment.

    Pre 1977 and through 1985 1A and 4A had less schools. 2A and 3A had around 100 teams in each classification. Schools that would have been 4A with an even split played 3A and schools that would be 1A with a 25% alignment played 2A.

    Northern Guilford's first year of football was 2009.
     
    9 btango, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  10. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    We all know this is jus a 2a troll trying to compare his 2a team 2 the 4a in his own jaded way by saying the 4a is "weak".
     
  11. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    I think crest would b good but 2 beat MC, butler, Scotland. 7-4 in an average 4a conference.
     
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  12. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    Nice debate....who mentioned 2A? You can't even carry on a debate with us. You see our name and lock up....I guess we are that much in your head.
     
  13. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    Jus a weak 4a observation of overall terrible nc football my friend
     
  14. hokiemtc

    hokiemtc Well-Known Member
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    If Crest was put back in 4A, they'd be put in a Charlotte conference. As they prove each and every year, they'd just as soon quit football altogether as to have to play Charlotte schools. They don't want any of that.
     
  15. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    Probably the west meck. harding conference
     
  16. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    Wow btango. We haven't seen you this excited in years. You got so passionate about our mistake you screwed up your own references to the Crest 1989 and 1990 teams.
    And then you went back and edited to correct it.
    We stand corrected on when Crest entered 4A. We admit our mistakes. So it took them 9 years to top it, not 3. While never making a 3A Title Game for 18 years previously.
    Still looks pretty odd doesn't it?
    Crest also won several tough conference titles in that early 3A stretch, so your reference to them as "not very good" prior to 1980 is misleading. They couldn't get it done when they WERE good, and was only said to enhance your 4A position.
    You may also want to point out that during Crest's "strong 4A seasons" they were also losing some games to teams from smaller classifications.
    How is that possible?
    The rest of your post regarding the number of 4A schools is confusing. If Crest successfully played 4A against a larger field, then that just enhances our position that 4A has weak competition for newcomers.
    For now, we will just quote you, btango, on the subject previously. You recently stated for playoff purposes, since 4A is down to only 75 schools, "subdivide in 4A with four rounds of playoffs. 32 total teams. Subdivide 2A and 3A with five rounds of playoffs, 64 total teams".
    So who has what?
    As it is now, 64 of the 75 4A schools make the playoffs.
    Really?
     
  17. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    My quote was, "From the opening in 1967 until the 11-2 in 1980 they were not very good." One six, one seven, and one eight win season in the first 13 seasons. They then turned it around and had very strong records before moving to 4A.

    Crest was light years away from their 3A failures by the time they won their two 4A titles. When they returned to 3A their winning percentage picked back up after a drop off.

    Your quote from me is what I think they should do with the 1A and 4A playoffs. I would prefer to see four rounds with 32 teams.

    For now, I will just quote you, 72 state champion, on the subject in your prior post. "As it is now, 64 of the 75 4A schools make the playoffs." That is false. 48 of the 75 4A teams make the playoffs just as 48 of the 1A teams make the playoffs.
     
    17 btango, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  18. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    The statements made me curious about Crest and how they matched up as a 4A school record wise to their 3A numbers.

    Crest coached by John Taylor 1979-1986.
    3A 1979-1984. 52 wins 14 losses. 75% winning percentage.
    Playoff record 2-4 in four appearances. Undefeated regular season twice and one loss twice in playoff seasons.
    4A 1985-1986. 7-13. 35% winning percentage.
    No playoff appearances.
    Overall record 59-27. 68.6% winning percentage.

    Mike Stewart 1987-1996.
    All 4A. 81-37. (Did not factor in the 1996 tie.) 68% winning percentage. Two state titles 1994-1996.
    Playoff record 15-4 in four appearances. Two 5-0 title runs.

    Roy Kirby 1997-2009.
    4A 1997-2000. 38-12. 76% winning percentage. No title game appearances.
    Playoff record 6-4.
    3A 2001-2004. 63-6. 91% winning percentage. Two state titles 2003-2004. One runnerup 2001.
    Playoff record 16-2.
    4A 2005-2008. 35-18. (2005 actual on field record of 9-5). 66% winning percentage. No title game appearances.
    Playoff record 6-3 (2005 acutal on field record of 3-0).
    3A 2009. 7-5. 58% winning percentage.
    Playoff record 1-1.
    4A record 73-30. 70.8% winning percentage.
    3A record 70-11. 86% winning percentage.
    Overall record 143-41. 77.7% winning percentage.
    4A playoff record 12-7.
    3A playoff record 17-3.

    Combined playoff record 29-10.


    Since John Taylor took over in 1979 through Roy Kirby's tenure ending in 2009.
    3A record 122-25. 82% winning percentage.
    4A record 154-67. 69.6% winning percentage.

    Overall record 276-92. 75% winning percentage.

    Coach Taylor did well before moving up to 4A.

    Coach Stewart had a good four year run. Two state titles but lost big in the preceding years of those titles. Other six years 29-33. In fairness to him he left after the 1996 season.

    Coach Kirby had solid success but much more when he went to the 3A ranks.

    Crest has been 3A since Coach Kirby left and was replaced by Mark Barnes and then Will Clark the last two seasons.
    Barnes 63-13. 82.8% winning percentage. Two state titles. Two state runnersup.
    Clark 25-9. 73.5% winning percentage. One state title.

    ***Please check my math and accuracy.
     
  19. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    Btango-
    Why do you insist on never telling the whole story?
    The change from 64 teams to 48 teams JUST OCCURRED IN MAY. Up until now it has been 64 teams out of 75 made the playoffs. You know that yet you do not inform the readers of that. Why?
    And why the change only in 4A and 1A?
    BECAUSE THEY HAVE FEWER SCHOOLS IN THOSE CLASSIFICATIONS.
    50% less schools than either 2A or 3A.
    That matters, don't you think?
    4A football in NC has weak competition amongst themselves, has far less schools in the class, and now has less playoff challenges to win a championship.
    Pretty sorry set up for the most overrated classification in NC high school football.
    Richmond Senior, there may be hope for you yet.
     
  20. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    Do I think it matters (that 4A has less teams)? I think the whole playoff system still needs to be overhauled. I also understand why the smallest and largest group of teams may have less schools due to disparity of enrollment numbers.

    I could care less what was initially proposed (64), the plan that will be followed is all I am interested in once it is determined, so it is 48 which I do not like either. I thought it should have been 32 and four rounds which you have noted for me above. Too many teams in the playoffs, even in 2A and 3A.

    Everyone knows I have never supported the current playoff system. The plan I worked on three years ago was presented to the schools but the six divisions for the football playoffs was thought to be "too confusing" by the school representatives. I thought that 1A and 4A should have the largest number of schools (reverse happened) and subdivide while 2A and 3A should not subdivide.

    Do you now consider the 4A state title less worthy than even before because there are only 75 schools instead of about 115?
     
  21. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    Nice try at trapping us, btango. Gotta do better than that.
    ALL STATE ASSOCIATION TITLES ARE WORTHY AND VALID. PERIOD.
    A team wins all its playoff games, it is a state champion. It is not the teams or the schools that set up rival associations, classifications, subdivisions, playoff formats etc. Others do that. It is out of the control of the teams or schools, regardless of schools included or excluded, classification or geography.
    All they control is winning them all. And then they are crowned public school champions in the STATE of North Carolina.
    That includes all of Reidsville's many Championships before integration, before facemasks, and before time.
    That includes both Independence and Greenville Rose's Championships where subdividing classes meant they avoided playing each other.
    And that includes all Championships of the former strong members of the WNCHSAA, whose formation was due to disagreements with the (not all powerful) NCHSAA and where the two public school Champions avoided playing each other as well. Either both are worthy and valid, or neither one is.

    No, btango, the 4A State Title is not deemed "less worthy" due to less schools. The teams and schools do not control that. We are sure the stronger 4A Charlotte crowd would love to separate themselves into a form similar to the former BIG 16 that existed in South Carolina until last year. Purely based on enrollment, all 16 made the playoffs regardless of record and the champ was deemed a true "State Champion". How's that for "narrowing" the field? But they are worthy and valid State Champions because they won all their playoff games in a format set up by others. This year, SC reclassified with a 5A class and 32 teams in the 5A playoffs. Sounds better to us.

    Competition in 4A football in NC is just extremely weak.
    You see it everywhere. And for years now. 1A teams beat 4A. 2A teams beat 4A consistently. Teams judged to be the best in preseason can't get out of their own way and exit the playoffs in early rounds. 4AA teams make the title games and then get destroyed and humiliated with second half running clocks.

    4A should be embarrassed.
     
  22. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    The Big 16 was dropped in SC several years ago. It went to the 4A D1 category which had different facets that were more in line with NC's subdividing.
     
  23. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    At least we no longer are pushing the fallacy of Crest's immeidate domination of 4A or the false claim that they did better in 4A than 3A.
     
  24. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    btango- "several years ago" and "different facets"??
    From SCHSL page in Wikipedia-
    AAAA Football
    Football at the AAAA level is subdivided into two divisions (I and II). Division I schools are the sixteen largest schools in the state by enrollment, and the division is often referred to as the Big 16. For the 2012-2014 period, the following schools are in the Big 16.

    Wando High School
    Dorman High School
    Lexington High School
    Summerville High School
    Sumter High School
    Boiling Springs High School
    James F. Byrnes High School
    Blythewood High School
    Spring Valley High School
    Hillcrest High School
    Mauldin High School
    Fort Dorchester High School
    Gaffney High School
    Dutch Fork High School
    Ridgeview High School
    Carolina Forest High School
    Conway High School
    Hmmm..btango?
    Please. Explain.
     
  25. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    For Crest to go 4A for only 16 years and win the UNIFIED title in year 10 and 12 is incredibly strong. That is 12.5% of them.
    They have won 4 titles in 34 years as 3A. 11.8% and all subdivided 3A. Hmmm..
    But let's look closer at those 16 years Crest was in a UNIFIED 4A. It may expose some things. Even with Richmond Senior claiming 5 (five) titles in that period, 11 (eleven) different programs won the UNIFIED 4A title, with Crest as the ONLY other multiple winner.
    Now THAT is competition.
    In the 16 years since 2000, only 7 (seven) different programs have claimed 4AA titles, 3 with multiple titles and another 3 who won previously between 1985 and 2000.
    And that is it.
    Indy doesn't count anymore. Neither does Richmond Senior so
    you got about 5 or 6 top programs and then the entire rest of the field that couldn't win 3A or even 2A.
    But a couple of more recent examples close the case.
    Charlotte Catholic goes from 3A to 4A in 2013. They promptly go the 4A title game in 2014 and then return to win it in 2015. Now they are back to 3A. Explain that one.
    Finally back to Crest.
    There was more than one casual observer that felt the 2013-15 versions of Crest would have played very competitively with anyone at the top of 4A. To deny that is just to deny good solid football.
    A public school with 1250 students shouldn't even be in the conversation of playing competitively with a public school of 2600 students.
    But they are......
     
    25 72 State Champion, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  26. BlackKnightNut

    BlackKnightNut Well-Known Member
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    Oh boy, here we go again...
     
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  27. hokiemtc

    hokiemtc Well-Known Member
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    Because, as usual with all of your personalities, it's just simply not true.

    Last year, there were 101 4A teams and 100 3A teams.
     
  28. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    As stated previously Crest was not very strong from 1967-1980. Most schools, not all, are not powerhouse teams the first years they are open. Using records from when Coach Taylor took over in 1979 seemed to be logical.

    Using the state titlist since subdividing started in 2002 (2A-4A) the breakdown is very similar for the four sub-classes and the same for the overall classification combined. 4A and 2AA had nine schools win a title while 2A had eight and 4A the seven you mentioned. Combined the two overall classes had 15 different schools to win a state title.

    4A (9): Rose 4, ACR 2, New Bern 2, Dudley 2, Hoggard 1, 71st 1, Hillside 1, Scotland 1, Catholic 1.
    4AA (7): Indy 6, Butler 3, Mallard Creek 3, New Bern 1, Richmond 1, Page 1, Wake Forest 1.
    2A (8): Shelby 3, Tarboro 3, Cummings 2, SW Onslow 2, Clinton 1, Lincolnton 1, New Cononver 1, East Lincoln 1.
    2AA (9): Reidsville 5, Shelby 3, Catholic 1, Salisbury 1, West Stokes 1, South Iredell 1, HP Andrews 1, East Lincoln 1, Monroe 1.

    Note 3A and 3AA each had nine different schools win a state title with a total of 15 schools, identical to 2A and 4A.

    From 1985 through 2000 (new alignment for 2001 season) there were eleven different state championship schools in 4A as you wrote. In 2A there were eleven state champions with Clinton and Thomasville winning three each and Lexington two. The two classes were identical in overall championship schools.

    Charlotte Catholic lost by 45 and 20 to 4AA state champion Mallard Creek in 2013 and 2014. First one was a physical beatdown and the other was pretty much decided by the half. Give Catholic credit for taking the game and the RH Northwestern matchup.

    Crest repping the west in the 4AA title game in 2014 or 2015? Note I did not include 2013. Their non conference foes (Ashbrook, South Point, and TC Rob) and a 2A/3A split conference make it tough to make the comparison. I would say no but there is always the possibility that would have happened. Good chance to win the 4A title. Not much difference in enrollments between the western teams that won a 4A title and Crest.
     
  29. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    That information cannot be correct. Before they met in the 2012 4A DI title game Dutch Fork beat White Knoll and Gaffney had beaten Ashely Ridge. They are not on the list. Stratford and Irmo, both not on the list, also played in the DI playoffs. Conway, on the list, played in the DII playoffs. Those were probably the largest 16 schools in the state but SC was not doing the playoffs any longer under the "old" Big 16 format.

    The Big 16 was originally a set number of the largest 16 schools that made the playoffs regardless of record that started with the 1981 season. The schools were preset based totally on enrollment from the previous school year's spring ADM's (think it was the 135 day count). There were years where teams qualified with two or fewer wins and I am positive that some zero win schools qualified because they were one of the 16 largest. That format went away when SC went to the same setup as NC where they subdivided the schools after they qualified for the playoffs and then divided into a small and large category being designated DI and DII. Many continued to call it the Big 16 and Little 16 although it was a totally different format. Jerome Singleton, the SCHSL director, noted with the change that it would not be the Big 16 as the schools were no longer simply the largest 16 schools in the state.
     
    29 btango, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  30. ruleman77

    ruleman77 Well-Known Member
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    why would even think of this real simply they were not KINGS then, and no way they would b KINGS now. Go back and get ready 4 da weekend swett2victory
     
  31. BlackKnightNut

    BlackKnightNut Well-Known Member
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    Went and looked at the records to check Crest out pertaining to 4A. Looks like they had to go through Tom Knotts in order to learn big boy football. Harding and West Charlotte dominated Crest for years in 4A before they finally beat West Charlotte on the way to winning their first state title. West Charlotte returned the favor next year before winning their own title. Crest also had problems with Richmond.
     
    31 BlackKnightNut, Jun 8, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  32. 704CougarsDad

    704CougarsDad Well-Known Member
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    We all know why this 2a troll is on a 4a board saying that nc 4a is weak. Anybody else I would have an discussion but we all know his agenda. Jus worry about SC South Pointe first. We had an opening but no teams from Cleveland cty called, so we're playing a union cty team (monroe)
     
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  33. swett2victory

    swett2victory Well-Known Member
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    >.<
     
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  34. 72 State Champion

    72 State Champion Well-Known Member
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    btango-
    Your blab of info doesn't change anything.
    4A football in NC has weak competition amongst themselves, has far less schools in the class now, and will have less playoff challenges to win a championship.
    And the teams can't play up against a higher class and rarely play outside NC to prove differently.
    Shaking our heads.
    As far as BIG 16, take it up with Wiki. It was still an absurd playoff format.
    Speaking of absurd playoff formats, correct us here if we are mistaken.
    Starting in 2017 in NC, 4AA and 4A will have 24 teams each in the playoffs, correct?
    They will be seeded by MaxPreps (or whoever), with the top EIGHT SEEDS receiving First Round BYES into the Second Round. Third Round is the Regional Finals (semis), and the Championship Title game is the Fourth Round.
    Assuming most years the Champion will come from the top eight seeds, THE NC 4AA STATE CHAMPION ONLY PLAYS THREE PLAYOFF GAMES ?!?
    You're kidding us.
    And the 3A, 3AA and 2A, 2AA Champions HAVE TO PLAY 5 PLAYOFF GAMES. Hmm....

    Time to trot out out the WNCHSAA title validity debate AGAIN.
    42 teams and 3 (three) rounds of playoffs. Mocked as far too small to be considered "state champions".
    Versus;
    38 teams and effectively 3 (three) rounds of playoffs.

    Game over.
     
  35. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    I do not agree with the playoff system now nor the last 16 years.

    The WNCHSAA had 38 teams total their last years of existence with more leaving before it folded. 8 teams made the three round playoff in latter years. 4A/4AA will have 48 teams total in the playoffs. I thought it should have 32.

    Based on your argument the geographically limited WNCHSAA, the 75 team state wide 4A classification is a huge upgrade. If a school with 1,800 wins the 4AA title that falls in line with your chest beating for Shelby scheduling ACR out of conference.

    The numbers you use in your arguments regarding Crest and teams that win the playoffs are enough to validate the three of you or the one of you that is posting is delusional. They defeat your arguments without a rebuttal. Keep deflecting.
     
    35 btango, Jun 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  36. Shotgun-Spread

    Shotgun-Spread Well-Known Member
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    Reidsville just won a small 2A title
     
  37. btango

    btango Well-Known Member
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    Yep. They beat Holmes. My apologies to the good folks of Reidsville. Add one to their total. The overall number of schools that won a 2A title remains the same.

    Thanks for resting Swett.
     
    37 btango, Jun 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
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  38. Crestuff

    Crestuff Well-Known Member
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    If Crest could get back all the neighborhoods it's lost since its last 4a chip they would have no problem with anyone. Burns has benifited from the Kingstown neighborhood and Shelby has benefited from the Laurel Hills( hollyoak) and Light Oak area ...Crest got some prime atheletes from these areas in the 90's
     
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  39. hokiemtc

    hokiemtc Well-Known Member
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    Good post, Crestuff. You're right, things change. Many of the current powerhouses didn't even exist in the 1990s, and for the ones that did, redistricting and changing demographics has permanently altered many of their competitive landscapes. Closer to town, Indy spawned Butler and Rocky River. North Meck spawned Mallard Creek and Hough. In addition to Crest, it's hard to imagine how good those programs would be these days if they had not been divied up due to changing population centers.
     
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  40. BlackKnightNut

    BlackKnightNut Well-Known Member
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    The flip side of that coin is how weird it is that it took Charlotte so long to dominate big boy ball. They always had talent, but even Tom Knotts didn't dominate until the new century. He raised the bar and made every other school down there get it going. Having the Panthers down there probably also helped from an opportunity standpoint as far as availability for training and advice. Feel free to chime in, Charlotte fans. You certainly are on top now, even though Wake Forest has raised their own bar as a result of having to compete with you guys. Maybe the other Raleigh schools can follow suit as well...
     
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