High Point Andrews

GoNtheDistance

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Oct 3, 2003
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http://www.news-record.com/sports/high_school/seven-guilford-high-school-football-programs-face-fines-probation/article_9ab06a5e-74d7-11e4-848f-dbe8fc7ecc88.html

Big news out of Guilford County today where many of the county's football programs were fined and reprimanded for not properly completing paperwork for the state's 8 quarter rule. One of which was my High Point Andrews Red Raiders, who were found to have not filled out pre game or post game paperwork in 9 of their 10 regular season games this year. That is inexcusable and resulted in a $4,500 fine for the school, in addition to forfeiting the 9 games in which they didnt complete paperwork. The lack of leadership has to change. If this doesn't push McKoy out the door, I'm not sure anything ever will. The issues on the field with lack of discipline, penalties, etc are one thing, but not being responsible enough as a leader/administrator to file required paperwork and documentation when it's been a rule for a good number of years now is a perfect example of an incapable leader. I've been around a lot of football dating back to the 70's at Andrews and this guy must go.
 

fhsalum01

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Aug 20, 2013
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Speed don't mean a hill of beans when your administration and coaches can't even get it right. You "track stars" are some kind of stupid aren't you?
 

TVILLEDAWG2370

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Distance,I know me and you have had our share of disagreements on here,but man I totally agree with you on this one 100%,I think the coach has got to go after hearing this news.
 

GoNtheDistance

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probation is only related to paperwork. the county will be checking behind all 7 schools that were reprimanded to ensure paperwork is properly documented for 8 quarter rule.

Tville, thanks for the comment brother. We've battled on here but at the end of the day, the adults have to be good examples for these young people and that's lacking significantly at Andrews right now. I think you guys had some bumps in the road but have a good leader that will get you back to the top. We on the other hand have a "leader" who continues to fail miserably at things that go above and beyond wins and losses. The Andrews coach should be fired. He did not fill out ANY paperwork for 8 quarter this year...ANY.
 

Slasher Killer

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Wow. Does anyone know what all games are gonna get forfited by Andrews? I know it's 9 but do they know the 9 in particular yet?
 

HARRYT

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This is not Just Andrews but nine other schools in Guilford County, that just Guilford County, this could be wide spread.
This could open a can of worms for every body.-

www.greensborosports.com/tag/high-school-football/

This post was edited on 11/25 3:49 PM by HARRYT
 

GoNtheDistance

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HARRYT, as noted in my post and found in the newspaper article, we are just one of many within the county. We, however, were the only school that didn't complete any paperwork at all which is why our fine was so high proportionate to how many games we actually had to forfeit.
 

HARRYT

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Dudley was fine the same($4500.00) and forfeit the whole season.

This post was edited on 11/25 4:52 PM by HARRYT
 

Godevilsgo

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Distance I think you are correct in the assessment of the Andrews coach. Sounds like he is lazy and has disregard for following the rules. If so, that is a bad example for the kids. He most likely will not be at Andrews next year. This is not a mistake, its a disregard to complete the job requirements. It tarnishes the image of a school and the school system.
 

GoNtheDistance

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Harry, our fine also includes paying back our split from last year's state playoffs. We got hammered because it's one thing to submit pre game paperwork and then possibly forget to file the post game paperwork maybe once, maybe twice, or hell even submit it late if you realize you missed it which is what most of the other schools did. Slap them on the wrist and keep it moving. McKoy didn't do ANY paperwork for 9 games. That's negligent. What if one of the kids he used under the 8 quarter rule had an injury or something that wasn't documented because the pre game paperwork wasn't filled out and then that young man rolls out there late in the 4th quarter of a varsity game the next night that has already been decided and gets seriously injured. You talk about his family having a liability claim that would turn not only Andrews on its head but the county on its head, and possibly the state.

No excuse for it. My biggest issue as stated by Devils is that it greatly harms the image of the school. Everything was done correctly on the field, no kids living out of district, no crazy business, however, the failure to submit the paperwork in its entirety for 9 games is a clear indication of inability or unwillingness to follow the rules and do things the right way. This issue is yet another example of McKoy's inability to lead our young people. And we wonder why he can't instill discipline on the field?!?!?! Look in the mirror! I'm done with Andrews until they make a choice to do what's right for the kids. At this point, I could care less if they lose more than they win if they are doing things the right way. Sick of ignorant adults ruining the reputation of the school and hurting the perception of these kids and their program when they bust their tails.
 

Godevilsgo

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But Distance isn't that how it seems to work, adults interfering with kids success. How my son reminds me of my generation and how they bend the rules and kill the American dream for personal gain. I can assure you others are doing very the much the same as coaches and ADs. I know one AD who did nothing for a year, including the paperwork. Then left. Good riddance.
 

GoNtheDistance

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you are right devils. I won't use the excuse that it happens everywhere, but I think we all know that if the state mandated each county to run a thorough investigation of this reporting for each of their high schools, this list would balloon with schools that aren't in compliance. I'm a proponent that the rule should be changed to only be available to schools that have limited numbers. I'm not sure what that minimum bar should be but I'd set it somewhere around 40 or so total in your program. some of these 3a and 4a schools that have issues with the 8 quarter thing should be ashamed.
 

TVILLEDAWG2370

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I'm a hardliner when it comes to things like this, and this is just inexcusable if you ask me,I think coaches that do things like this should get a lifetime ban from coaching anywhere in our state,I can now see and understand why most of the Andrews fans wanted the coach gone now,it goes way beyond wins and loses,if this were to happen at the team/school I'm a fan of,I wouldn't go back either until it the situation was resolved by removing the head coach and everybody else who was involved.
 

redraiderfan74

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removing everyone else involved would include the principal and AD, as all three have to sign the paper, as well as County AD as it is ultimately his responsibility to ensure GCS compliance. this would be alot of death sentences over not alot of information.

Alot of speculation is going on here, let me just point out that all we know is that there was not adequate paperwork filed. This could mean a number of things. The paper work could have been filed and inadequate, the paper work could have been completed and not filed, the paper work could have sat on a shelf and nobody touched it. Lots of scenarios here, and we are jumping to a lot of conclusions with very limited information.

What I can surmise from this is that there is a systematic issue that at least 7 other schools got wrapped up in. Norwood at Ragsdale got fined as well and hes been coaching since god invented dirt. While alot falls on the head coach, to be honest the buck does not stop with him. There are layers of accountability and the failure could have been at a number of levels: HC, Trainer, AD, or School Administration.

Distance I know you want McKoy gone, and this is just another log to fuel your fire. It is your opinion and your welcome to it. You raise some valid criticism sometimes, but execution is a bit of a stretch at this point with out knowing what the failure was and at what level it happened.

Other points worth noting: the play off money forfeit is described as from "2014". This would lead me to believe that last years season will remain untouched. also andrews was not "disproportionately fined" compared to other schools. All three schools that had to forfeit games were fined 500 dollars per game. 9 games = 4500. Dudley got hit the hardest with 10 games/5k. The other schools were hit with a Flat 500 dollar fine, why they did not have to forfeit I do not know.

I also would be curious to see what happens if EVERY LEA turns the lights on themselves like GCS has done. I am sure there are plenty more out there hiding in the dark. Lets see what Davidson, Randolph, or Fordyth counties do about it?
 

btango

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Originally posted by GoNtheDistance:

Harry, our fine also includes paying back our split from last year's state playoffs. .
The playoff penalty is the cut for the one game they played in this year. The NCHSAA does not take money from a past season after September 1 of the next school year.
 

GoNtheDistance

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As noted in the official release andrews was docked for not having pre or post game paperwork filed. That's inexcusable. Spin it how u want and say I want McKoy gone which is true and you are right, this is another log on the fire and it should be. Dave Mizell lost his job for something similar. McKoy should be no different.
 

GoNtheDistance

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And 74, when all things considered, how can one not believe that there has to be a serious conversation about his future as football coach. All these issues start with him. He's gotten more of a pass than those before him.
 

GoNtheDistance

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Does the probation prevent the teams from competing in the playoffs next year or just more of a notice that future error will lead to a more harsh punishment.?
 

redraiderfan74

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Comparing this to 2003 is apples and oranges. 2003 was over athlete eligibility due to attendance, potential conflict of interest with coaches filling as ADs, and other things happening in the building. 2014 is missing 8 quarter paperwork. I do not say that to mean that this is excusable, just that they are horses of a different color. As for Mitzell, I dont know if he was forced out or chose to leave, but you are correct, other less controversial coaches left over similar, but not identical, situations.

As for the probation, as far as i understand it, it just means watch out. I am assuming that further violations would incur harsher penalties, but no additional penalties other than what has already been listed for now. (meaning no effect on playoff eligibility for next year or other sports this year) I as always could be wrong about this.

By no means do I say give anyone a free pass. All I am saying is lets find out exactly who screwed up before we sharpen our pitchforks.

In the grand history of Andrews coaches, from drugs, to sexual liberties, to academic misconduct, McKoy seems to be mild if his knocks are that he gets alot of penalties and messed up on 8 quarter paperwork like others in the county. Punishable sure, just not dismissable in my opinion. I am curious how many coaches were fired from Andrews for their coaching ability alone? not being sarcastic, a genuine question. Most coaches chose to leave (at least on paper) when it comes to losing or being unwanted, you really gotta be doing something illicit to be fired.
 

redraiderfan74

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and for the record, I am admittedly a fan of McKoy. Do i think he is perfect, no. Do i think he does great things for the school, the programs, the kids, and their families? Yes. Am I biased in with holding judgement? Sure am.


Do i expect everyone else to love him? Nope. Sorry if you saw it as spin, I was just noting that I know how you feel, and you are fine to have those opinions distance.
 

HARRYT

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For the record this may happen
If this probe goes state-wide, there will be a LOT of money coming in to the NCHSAA. Most coaches/ADs did not even know about the post-game paperwork (online) changes this year!!
 

GoNtheDistance

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Guilford county released this report too early. It will get lost in the playoff hustle and bustle and give other school systems time to clean up their house so to speak. I'm with the group that doesn't believe this will go state wide. I think we all can agree that if it did, there would be possibly hundreds of schools with some type of infraction.

And I get your sentiment 74. Given your position and ties to the program, I'd probably support McKoy too. My issue is that people continue to try and find an excuse for this guy. The new one being he may not have known about the online post game work. All updates are shared with coaches at the summer meetings so there's no excuse to play the ignorance card. We will see how it all plays out but I think you'll find a lot of people that may fall on the same side of the fence as me in that this may be the straw that finally breaks the camels back so to speak. Agree or not, but there's a large amount of raider contingency that frankly want McKoy gone. We will see.
 

new_dawg

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Originally posted by HARRYT:
For the record this may happen
If this probe goes state-wide, there will be a LOT of money coming in to the NCHSAA. Most coaches/ADs did not even know about the post-game paperwork (online) changes this year!!
The only way this goes statewide (and it won't) is if the LEA's all do it. Remember, this was an investigation by Guilford County Schools, not the NCHSAA. NCHSAA does not have manpower to check everything that would need to be checked.
 

fitguync30

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GoNtheDistance,
With this latest foul up I am not sure how the head coach can stay in the job. I don't really follow Andrews but read your posts often. Seems like all year Andrews was plagued by foolish penalties and poor play calling. So even with tons of talent and athleticism the results were not pretty. With the talent Andrews has it seems like a well organized coach that instills discipline and buying into a system would have a state title contender nearly every season. I think you or someone else also mentioned an assistant coach that wears sun glasses and how he spent the entire game pacing up and down the sideline screaming and yelling at the kids for one reason or another. Why didn't the head coach tell that clown to calm down and just do his job? You know 100 times more than I do about the Red Raider program. But it seems like they need a big infusion of discipline and someone with a clear head that keeps the kids and his staff in line.
 

ALLREAL

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Nov 4, 2014
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I have no dog in this fight. I just have one ?. Is this a disregraud for the rules or is it not knowing the rules? Maybe all counties need some coaches clinics to make sure all rules are followed. Just asking a ?
 

GoNtheDistance

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Coaches are required to go to the state clinic every summer where rules are reviewed including this one. The "I didn't know excuse" isn't a good one in this case. 8 quarter has been around for a while so it's not new.
 

Tootall4yall

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Nov 29, 2001
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I am wondering if this may have been one of the things that McKoy delegated to someone else, like the AD, and just didn't think about. I wonder if the quick departure of our former AD to go to Parkland before the season started had anything to do with it? I wouldn't put it past him to be negligent in his duties as a final "parting shot" of his arrogance. I have said before, I like McKoy as a person, he's a good man. Unfortunately though, there have been way too many incidents of ineptitude, disorganization, and lack of professionalism during his tenure. I thought last season was where both he and the program turned the corner but the rapid descent back to the chaos of previous years exhibited this year was disheartening.
 

1whoknows

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Originally posted by HARRYT:
For the record this may happen
If this probe goes state-wide, there will be a LOT of money coming in to the NCHSAA. Most coaches/ADs did not even know about the post-game paperwork (online) changes this year!!
HARRYT-For the record, this is not the first year for post game report ONLINE. AND YES, EVERY COACH SHOULD HAVE KNOWN if they paid ATTENTION in the rules meeting. And yes, I am sure you would find some others, but as you can see ONLY 7 schools in GCS failed to do paperwork. How many schools do you ALL have? So how many did do their paperwork? So let's not leave the county, when we can see we have guys that are getting it done in your county. And I would be surprised myself that Ragsdale is found out not to be in compliance. They might eventually be subtracting one.
 

1whoknows

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Originally posted by GoNtheDistance:
Guilford county released this report too early. It will get lost in the playoff hustle and bustle and give other school systems time to clean up their house so to speak. I'm with the group that doesn't believe this will go state wide. I think we all can agree that if it did, there would be possibly hundreds of schools with some type of infraction.

And I get your sentiment 74. Given your position and ties to the program, I'd probably support McKoy too. My issue is that people continue to try and find an excuse for this guy. The new one being he may not have known about the online post game work. All updates are shared with coaches at the summer meetings so there's no excuse to play the ignorance card. We will see how it all plays out but I think you'll find a lot of people that may fall on the same side of the fence as me in that this may be the straw that finally breaks the camels back so to speak. Agree or not, but there's a large amount of raider contingency that frankly want McKoy gone. We will see.
You can't clean up house as you say. These forms are DATED!!! and turned in to a central location. GCS turns theirs in to the County AD. Lol Each week. Other counties turned theirs into normally the conference president. These forms must be faxed each week to conference president and copy keep on file at your school. Then you go ONLINE and do post form and click VERIFY and a DATE is STAMPED. So you cannot go back and clean up ANYTHING.
 

redraiderfan74

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Your process while ideal is simply not true. If GCS AD really did collect and document everything weekly, why is it all of a sudden at the end of the season 10 weeks later when it is noticed that there is an issue? Weekly submissions would raise a red flag way earlier in the season if that process was indeed happening.

There are a lot of hypotheticals being thrown out now, but I can tell you this, word is there were other GCS schools that got wise to when dudley was first outed and they backdated their paperwork. How they got away with it I dont know. But if they were able to, then others in the state can as well.

Beyond that, other than going back and scrutinizing game film to track who is on the side lines, what is to keep a coach from simply not declaring ANY 8 quarter kids? with no paper work, the burden of proof is on NCHSAA to prove that someone dressed on a sideline was also dressed the night before.


What I just cannot fathom is that out of the whole state, we only hear about it happening in GCS. Either everyone else in the state has got it perfect and we really are a screwed up county, or others are hiding some dirty laundry themselves. I tend to believe that if it happens to 7 schools in 1 county, there has GOT to be more state wide. While i have no problem with GCS schools facing the music for any negligence they have, I do not like that we are the only LEA that is having to deal with this. Again, hard to do anything about because it is basically a self reporting system, perhaps NCHSAA needs to start spot checking or random auditing? Or perhaps other systems need to turn the microscope on them selves like GCS did?
 

Sportsnut17

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Originally posted by redraiderfan74:


Beyond that, other than going back and scrutinizing game film to track who is on the side lines, what is to keep a coach from simply not declaring ANY 8 quarter kids? with no paper work, the burden of proof is on NCHSAA to prove that someone dressed on a sideline was also dressed the night before.
Integrity and desire to follow the rules!
 

No.1RamsFan

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My guess is if they interviewed every JV player in the state they would find out that there are actually more. having said that I am also sure that most of the coaches in schools all across the state who did things the right way and are therefore clean.
 

TheMule

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The Red Raiders will be playing Reidsville next year.

NE Guilford decided they had enough of the Rams and threw in the towel.

Glad Andrews took the challenge. Should be a great game.
 

TGT

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Sep 18, 2001
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Some observations
1. Dudley's violation wasn't an 8-quarter violation. They dressed a junior on both JV and varsity the same week. The 8-quarter rule only applies to freshmen and sophomores.

2. From the NCHSAA rules section:




Following the game, a status report on the designated players must be completed which shall
include the names of all freshman and sophomore junior varsity football player(s) designated and
dressed as emergency players and report the number of quarter(s) in which each athlete actually
played. Anyportion of a quarter equals a quarter played. If a player dresses out but does not play,
record as "0" quarters played. Form must be signed by coach, athletic director and principal and
submitted on line to the NCHSAA by the first school day after the varsity contest.

3. If anybody screws this up next year in light of all that has happened this year, they should be put on double secret probation and be forced to read the NCHSAA rule book out loud and in its entirety to people in a crowded checkout line at Wal-Mart.






This post was edited on 11/28 3:12 PM by TGT