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Doubts in 1A

recycled2

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2012
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It really is sad in 1A for teams that play Bishop and also Bishop. Bishop has won 9 titles but they have an admitted advantage over their competition in that they can draw players from everywhere. No point in rehashing this. I am just sad for them and their fan base because at the end of the day they probably wonder if they could have won if the playing field was level? In other posts their supporters protest that other teams have been good enough to win, what would have happened if the field was even? I am sure that if you took players from Cherokee, Hayesville, Rosman and Robbinsville and let them go to school together then bishop would not have 9 titles. I am sure other conferences in the state are the same. Funny in most cases they would be drawing from a smaller population than Bishop draws from. I am sure the bishop crew will refute this and probably tell us how ignorant we are, I guess the truth hurts.
 
Not saying they don't have an advantage but it is not like they are light years ahead competitively of the teams they have beat at regional or state the last several years. SMC teams have been close a handful of times. The state title game has been very competitive. Yes the ability to simply reload from what seemingly is an unlimited talent pool is a decided advantage over traditional high schools year after year but traditional schools have been very close several times and just haven't been able to get the job done. That being said do I think the state should do something ie make them play up a levelor 2 or set up their own division of similar style schools? Yes. But currently the system is what it is and the traditional schools are not that far off in both 1a boys and girls. The young lady from Bishop misses that shot and then what would peoples argument be? 9 in a row is amazing. Should it come with an *? That is debatable. This whole issue has been beaten absolutely to death worse than the transfer habits of tribal members in WNC.
 
Gal - should Swain's titles with many Cherokee players have a *? as well?? Where do you draw the line? Not trying to start a fight Gal just look through other people's eyes. Does Swain have an advantage over 1A teams?
 
Originally posted by recycled2:
It really is sad in 1A for teams that play Bishop and also Bishop. Bishop has won 9 titles but they have an admitted advantage over their competition in that they can draw players from everywhere. No point in rehashing this. I am just sad for them and their fan base because at the end of the day they probably wonder if they could have won if the playing field was level? In other posts their supporters protest that other teams have been good enough to win, what would have happened if the field was even? I am sure that if you took players from Cherokee, Hayesville, Rosman and Robbinsville and let them go to school together then bishop would not have 9 titles. I am sure other conferences in the state are the same. Funny in most cases they would be drawing from a smaller population than Bishop draws from. I am sure the bishop crew will refute this and probably tell us how ignorant we are, I guess the truth hurts.
There is no doubt on Bishop's part. Everyone looks at the 9 titles and says Bishop has an advantage. Sorry - but if you look at how they got the title, there is alot less evidence of any "advantage". During that 9 year run, Bishop did not win it's conference title almost half the time (4 years). At least twice in the playoffs the games went into overtime. This year the win came on a Hail Mary shot. Most of the Regional games were close - particularly in the last 4-5 years. Only once in the nine years did they have a perfect record. Bishop can and has been beat by "traditional" schools. Every NW Conference school has beat Bishop at one time or another. We've always been on the edge of our seats playing Cherokee (I'd love to see regular season games with them - they're a strong team with incredible fans).

What was Hayesville's advantage when they won six titles in a row? Why doesn't Bishop's supposed advantage show up in other sports (men's basketball, football, softball, baseball, soccer)?

Bishop's only distinct advantage is an extraordinary coaching staff. Another may be is that they KNOW they can be beat and play to win. Alot of their opponents FEAR they can't be beat and their play reflects that.
 
The games with Bishop have become closer and closer as the years have went on. I will 100% agree they have the best coaching staff in the state 1A-4A, The players play a lot like Coach Robinson and they never seem rattled.

The reason why Bishop has not won the conference every single year? Because the Northwest 1A/2A and now Northwest 1A are brutal. Every single night you are playing the likes of WS-Prep, Mount Airy, East Surry, North Surry, Surry Central, and Atkins. This is part of why Bishop has not went undefeated, the other reason would be because their non conference schedule is even tougher playing 4A teams and traveling to Georgia or California for holiday tournaments.
 
Why doesn't Bishop's supposed advantage show up in other sports (men's basketball, football, softball, baseball, soccer)?

Silversides, you didn't mention BM's golf program. It is a program, not really a team - most 1-A golf teams are a group of guys thrown together who have never played, but are enticed by getting out of school early for matches. I am very familiar with BM's golfers over the past 5-6 years. All great kids and come from fine families. But they are there for one reason - not because they live close by - because they have talent and want to win state titles and play in college. I have had many conversations with their parents, and I can't blame them one bit - it's just not fair to be competing in 1-A. They draw from a population in excess of 1 million - most of the 1-A schools they go up against in the regionals or state have populations of 5,000-20,000 to draw from at most. These kids are year-round golfers and they typically have enough other kids where they could field a "B" team and probably qualify for the state tournament.
 
Recycled2 you wrote, "no point in rehashing this." Then why did you? More than that why another thread? This has been discussed repeatedly in if e or six other threads at the top of this forum.
 
Golf should be one classification (1A-4A) for individual titles.
 
Really no advantage? Plain truth if your population base was the same as 95% of the 1As you would have 0 titles.
 
Originally posted by recycled2:
Really no advantage? Plain truth if your population base was the same as 95% of the 1As you would have 0 titles.
About 90% of Bishop's students come from the Catholic feeder schools (which only send about half their graduates to Bishop, with the other half going to public schools), Those 6 schools have graduating classes of 30 - 60 students each a year for roughly 200-250 students total. How many graduate from your middle school?
 
Originally posted by btango:
Recycled2 you wrote, "no point in rehashing this." Then why did you? More than that why another thread? This has been discussed repeatedly in if e or six other threads at the top of this forum.
Also, has been discussed for the last 9 years.
 
Originally posted by exsshs:

Gal - should Swain's titles with many Cherokee players have a *? as well?? Where do you draw the line? Not trying to start a fight Gal just look through other people's eyes. Does Swain have an advantage over 1A teams?
I didn't say Bishop's titles deseved an *. I said it is debatable as many people think they do. Same for Swain titles as many who don't understand the dynamics of the situation but now all of a sudden people want to debate the legitamcy of Swain's football titles. And the Bishop issue and the Swain issue are two completely different things. I don't want to start a peeing match here either. You are talking about a school that has limitless boundaries and the best of the best decide to go there and play in the Bishop case. In the Swain case you are talking about a situation that based over the last 40 years that the student population in question has been in the Swain County School/Athletic Program their entire career outside outside of a handful. And the majority of that handful of players that decided to transfer to Swain over the last 40 years were not coming from stud teams. Again not trying to turn this into a pissing match but completely different issues. Like I said in my post I dont care who you are 9 championships in a row is impressive. Is their an advantage there that traditional schools don't have? Yes. Should the state look at it and try to fix it? Yes. But everyone makes it out like they are light years ahead of traditional schools. The girl hit a 40 foot desperation shot from half court to win or we would have a traditional champ. Same way people make Swain out to be this powerhouse team cause we get a few transfers from Cherokee every now and then. That is funny if people really looked at this. Most of those guys that played and played amazing for Swain came from teams that you could count their combined high school wins previous to being a maroon devil on one hand and that is not an exageration. And everyone never has anything to say when Swain loses transfers to the two other schools involved in our area. Sorry to ramble on. To answer your final question, I personally don't think Swain has even close to the same advantage or same situation as Bishop because Swain loses more players to this loophole than they have gained. In the past, you along with others have acted like their is a pipeline of blue chip talent rolling into Swain year in and year out from the school next door or the other one a little farther down the road. I would bet and take the house on if you took all the transfers in the last 10-15 years we recieved who had not played at Swain their whole career and compared them to the transfers we lost that went to other schools, you would find we have lost more players than gained. Just food for thought.
 
Everyone keeps saying bishop would have lost if not for that half court shot, the game was tied the shot just prevented overtime
 
You are missing the point I guess. The point a couple are making is it wasn't like they steamrolled the other team and won a very hard fought game.
 
So because it was close it makes it okay? Non-boundary vs Boundary Schools. It's getting old!!!!!
 
I know there is frustration about this topic but to answer your question, yes because it was close it does make it okay. At least that is what the state will say. They will say there were two very close title games between two very good teams. On the surface the boundary vs. Non boundary schools are fairly close based off the results of these games and the past results from very competitive regional match ups through the years. Fact is that with the games being this competitive, only gives the state more justification to keep it going. Like it or not...it's true. If Bishop was just crushing people and WE doing the same then you might have a leg to stand on.
 
Riverside and E Carteret both had teams that come along like once every 20-30 years not every year like some seem to have. If given a team of allstars from 12 different middle schools every year you could be competitive too
 
Originally posted by sbbbfan:
Riverside and E Carteret both had teams that come along like once every 20-30 years not every year like some seem to have. If given a team of allstars from 12 different middle schools every year you could be competitive too
Really?? Really?!! Didn't Riverside play under the name Williamston a few years ago?? That's alot less than 20-30 years.

It also won't surprise me to see them in the championship game next year. They're loosing some seniors, but the underclassmen are very good players.
 
yes 2 deserving true public 1a boundary teams vs your non-boundary school w/ kids from all over triad.
 
Yeah really. They may make it back next year but will they make it 8-9 years in a row. In 1a girls ball it dont take but 1-2 good players to win a lot of ball games and if you can put two or three 6 ft players on that team every year well its not hard to win. Most traditional schools are lucky to have one. What helped make East Surry so good for a long time is they always had heighth in the middle this year no height look where they finished. Prep and atkins have the same blueprint and are coming up fast
 
Originally posted by sbbbfan:
Riverside and E Carteret both had teams that come along like once every 20-30 years not every year like some seem to have. If given a team of allstars from 12 different middle schools every year you could be competitive too
I have been watching my alma mater , East Carteret , play football and basketball since before I was a student there in the late 70`s and 80`s . We have had some great baseball, basketball and football players come from there. Guys who have gone on to play at virtually every major college in NC . We had a Harlem Globetrotter , the defensive player of the year in Canadian Football an Arizona Cardinal linebacker , and many others who were Pirates , Wolfpackers , Tarheels Camels and the list goes on. Most three sport athletes and all-stars at all three sports .
The one thing they all had in common was very few of them played on the same team in the same years .Teams like the one East had this year come along once in a lifetime. These guys have ben together since they were in elementary school. They deserved to play a team that played by the same rules as them 100 % and they showed the same dominance over everyone they played this season 1a.2a.3a. and 4a when those teams were restricted by territorial boundaries.
The sister school in our county is West Carteret. They are 3A and also our rival. The same years they also had players go all over to different major college schools and were stars in many different sports like East. I can tell you in no uncertain terms , just like this season, if we could take the best players from East Carteret and West Carteret , and now Croatan High from our county of 68000 people and put them on one team we would have a dynasty too.
When I read some people on here defending the position it makes me quite ill. I have no problem with the rules being bent for someone who needs a little help but then to allow them to compete for the same championship after they had the rules bent for them is unacceptable. East ALMOST brought the giant down this year , one point and one second and we would have had the ring .
Once again I say play them all in the regular season if you want to, allow them to bend their rules and then allow them their own post season tournament and then play Charter Vs. Traditional for all the marbles in a 6 team tourney . 1a thru 4a , against charter and parochial. Or better yet , classify them by the population base they can draw from. Everyone deserves a fair shot against equal competition. Sportsmanship is about more than shaking hands after a game. A level playing field has a place there too.
 
PirateDad I appreciate the support of your hometown team!

WSP does have an advantage but when you write about combining the three Carteret schools or having your luck if the top players from those three schools you must realize that WSP is not the best team in Forsyth County and there are players at other schools that would start for WSP that opted not to attend there.
 
Most years we see a few teams travel out of state to play games or in tournaments. Do not see it with 1A schools very often but if a 1A team gets on a run a lot of larger schools do not want to play them as it is a non situation.

West Charlotte played on a Friday night against a conference for, got on a Trailways at 5 am the next morning and best DeMatha that night on their home court. That is 4A but the school did not pay for it and neither due the opponent.
 
Btango who would you say is the best in forsythe county since they all play each other a d didn't prep eat all and win the Christmas tournament. Not another in 1a in forsythe that can come close
This post was edited on 3/19 7:18 PM by sbbbfan
 
They did not play all the publics in Forsyth County and I am sure they lost to at least one of them. Some of the 4As and maybe some of the privates would have been great challenges for them.
 
Exactly some of the 4a or some of the privates should have been a good game for them. You answered the question. They regularly play most all the schools in forsythe and usually beat them

This post was edited on 3/19 9:30 PM by sbbbfan
 
All the Forsyth county teams play in the Christmas tournament the Frank Spencer . WSP has never won that tournament.
 
Originally posted by btango:
PirateDad I appreciate the support of your hometown team!

WSP does have an advantage but when you write about combining the three Carteret schools or having your luck if the top players from those three schools you must realize that WSP is not the best team in Forsyth County and there are players at other schools that would start for WSP that opted not to attend there.
My point is not that WSP is the best team in the area . I understand that the population being 10 times that of the area most 1A schools service lends itself to being a plethora of talent with a lot to go around. It is simply that they are allowed to play in 1A yet can draw from a much larger area than any other 1A team . It shouldn't matter if they are better than everyone else or if they never win a game , it should only matter that they are allowed to draw from a broader population and area, to play by different rules if you will . That is giving an advantage to one team that you are simultaneously prohibiting everyone else from using and at the same time telling the rest of us if you want to win it all you have to beat someone to whom we have given this advantage to. If you try to take the same advantage you will be disqualified
By the way who were the better teams than WSP ? Obviously not traditional 1A teams which we are discussing . I`m sure there are some 3a and 4a teams that are "better" . My idea would not be to combine all 3 schools into one , just the best basketball players from a 60, 000 person county and direct them to one school. What's wrong with that idea? Simply put its unfair if we do it and unfair when others are allowed to do it and pretend that the game is fair . Its not fair and we all know it even if some of us wont admit it . By the way that's called AAU ball, not High School ball.
 
WSP has never win the Xmas tourney but in my opinion they were the best team in Forsyth this past year!!! Tabor was heads and shoulders better last year. But I think WSP was the best team the year before that. During their three-peat run they've been the best team in Forsyth except for last year. East Forsyth which was good this past year UPSET WSP in the Xmas tourney thi year and West Stokes upset them a few years back. But to Btango's point there are other schools in Forsyth that can play an beat WSP. But there will be few 1A teams that can do so. All this Forsyth talk is excluding charter school QEA which has been the best team in our county in every year of its existence. They beat Oak Hill this past year but they recruit all over the country!! Watch how they reload for next year!!! We are all nervous in Forsyth County!!
 
Originally posted by utbb01:
WSP has never win the Xmas tourney but in my opinion they were the best team in Forsyth this past year!!! Tabor was heads and shoulders better last year. But I think WSP was the best team the year before that. During their three-peat run they've been the best team in Forsyth except for last year. East Forsyth which was good this past year UPSET WSP in the Xmas tourney thi year and West Stokes upset them a few years back. But to Btango's point there are other schools in Forsyth that can play an beat WSP. But there will be few 1A teams that can do so. All this Forsyth talk is excluding charter school QEA which has been the best team in our county in every year of its existence. They beat Oak Hill this past year but they recruit all over the country!! Watch how they reload for next year!!! We are all nervous in Forsyth County!!
I completely understand yours and his point, and I believe you and everyone else understand mine. It should make no difference whether someone can beat them once in a while or beat them 100 -2 every time they step on the court. Rules are meant for everyone to abide by 100 % of the time , not arbitrarily on a case by case basis because one county decided they don't like the rules. Once again its a classification matter , and anyone in their right mind doesn't think WSP , Rocky Mount Prep or the like should play in 1A.
Bear Grass is a charter in our conference. They wanted to start a program but they show up with 7 kids on the team that were from their rural area. Not very good but with a lot of heart they played a winless season. Our 2nd stringers put up a big score on them . I feel its the administration of the school that is doing them a disservice. A weak team in our conference makes them look like the Washington Generals against the Globetrotters similar to WSP numbers against some of their competition. I felt sorry for the Bear Grass players but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to pay players to come in or give other benefits to build their team. They should play against competition from their own size population/area against whom they will be competitive . I don't know if its true, but I`ve heard that a student can be admitted to WSP because they are a good athlete and that recruiting is rampant in Forsyth County . If that's true and their is no entity to investigate that then its all a moot point anyways.
 
Piratedad, Im a Forsyth County guy and recruiting has been rampant since 1996 when we adopted our open enrollment!!! It's become a way of survival in Forsyth!! And I mean everyone has to recruit to survive and by recruiting it starts with your own players every year!! WSP is a magnet school with about 165 kids and its entire population fill out paperwork and you're immediately accepted from anywhere in the County!!! Now we have 2 two week periods when any kid in the County can fill out paperwork to attend any public high school in the County!! It's during these periods that the recruiting is the heaviest!! Now outside of those two week periods it can be difficult to get a kid in cause home school principles can block the transfer. Matter of fact #22 the 6'8 center from WSP tried to leave to attend Tabor with his AAU teammates the Hatfield twins but the WSP principle blocked the transfer. But its cutthroat in Forsyth County and you wouldn't believe what goes on here!! Just know that Parkland may never lose another wrestling match(streak is currently at 8 years but they are 4A). I agree with all of you guys that every school in Forsyth has an advantage and its magnified on the 1A level!! But dont blame WSP cause its the Forsyth County way, they aren't breaking any rules!!
 
Ferg...you mentioned the Hatfield twins who played this year for Mt. Tabor in Winston. Last year they played for Davie County High School. The year before they played for South Davidson High School in Denton. Three schools in three counties in three years all the while living in the same house in Davidson County. All three schools "traditional schools" and "boundary schools". Same conversations and disagreements every year. The concept of a "level playing field" has always been imaginary.
 
PirateDad read the other threads on 1A about this. There is probably one in the 1A Football section.

The posts there will give you more information covering a lot what you write about.

This post was edited on 3/20 10:16 PM by btango
 
3daughters you're correct and I believe the states 365 rule is the Hatfield rule. But in Forsyth County it is waived and had never been a problem. Now we have tweaked our own rules with the Reyshawn Terry/Chante Black rule where you can't play the same sport at different schools. And I believe this year they are even trying to prevent kids from going back to their home school during the same school year. Cause we use to have kids play three sports at three different schools in Forsyth by ending at their home school.
 
The NCHSAA must impose the 365 set out rule for any student that changes schools without a change of residence. The exception would be if they left a magnet program and returned to their home district school. Regardless if they move or not they should not be allowed to play the same sport for two different schools if a more than a certain percentage of the season is complete. The last two sentences would have a tough time in a court case and would probably get an injunction to allow them to suit up.

3daughters did a student transfer to Bishop from a local private school and was allowed to play without a 365 day set out???
 
utbb. I must say that perspectives are beginning to change some of my feelings. I have always had a problem with Bishop playing in the 1a classification because of the population of the area that they draw from, and charters are no different, except I at least appreciate the fact that they are a public school which I am a huge believer in but particularly the traditional type. But with everything that I read from you it is becoming an even bigger issue with what goes on in forsyth county in general. Wow what a bunch of loose cannons down there pretty much doing whatever in the heck they want to. Am I wrong or would we all be better of to change the governing body of 1a athletics to the FCHSAA since they seem to play by whatever rules they want to. I really think we should consider it and if we all agree to do this, I think we should appoint coach1530 the president
 
Oldblue, it's the Wild Wild West here in Forsyth County!! We have the have's and the have not's!!! And while that applies to athletics its also unfortunately applying to academics which is my major concern!! I've stated on other threads about how I dislike our open enrollment and its more for academics than athletics. But I do recognize the advantage that we have over our counterparts across the state and like Ive said before the advantage is magnified on the 1A level.
 
UTTB I really appreciate your perspective from the inside and have read many of your posts and your concerns. It would seem from the outside that the model should work academically, where does it fail from that perspective? It is however very clear from the outside the advantages that it creates athletically and yes like you say it really magnifies itself at the 1a level. I have read other posts, and am not in a position to confirm, that WSP creates the perfect storm. The better basketball players want to go there so that they can create a forsyth county all star team. That is where the other advantage kicks in. Since others have posted that WSP is one of the poorer performing schools academically then obviously non basketball players are not going to flock there so there enrollment stays down. Enrollment is low, basketball talent is extremely high. You get 4a talent playing at the 1a level. That does seem to be the perfect storm. Just think that it is really a shame that the same classifications and rules that seemed to work so well for so long are now being used to create advantages for some while the rest of us that are playing the same game that we have always played get punished for it. Championships used to be won by hard work, good coaching, and being fortunate enough to have a group come along every 10 20 or 30 years that might give you that chance. I just don't understand why it is allowed to happen. I do however respect the other urban schools systems for not playing the rules and doing the same thing. If you believe in self policing and I definetly do because I am a golfer, then it seems reasonable to expect the forsyth county school board to stop it themselves. Being a naive type I have to assume that the school board made this change for what they believed to be pure and adacemically advantageous reasons for their students. However someone figured out the opportunity that it created athletically and they allowed the people inside their system to use the rules that they set out for other gain. How do they themselves not feel compelled to belly up and stop it. I am disappointed that this continues to be allowed and my disappointment runs from the supposed educators in forsyth county all the way up to the NCHSAA and everyone in between including myself that is obviously not doing enough to help get it fixed.
 
Oldblue, its a simple sell for WSP. It started as a Gates foundation school but that quicklly changed with the academic performance and the school system started funding it. To me a school system should operate as one entity doing the best it can for the entire population. We have a system of schools rather than a school system and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Just like athletics where all the athletes are pooling together, the same is happening with the econonmically advantaged. They are pooling together and its creating schools that are segregated along racial and economic lines. And the high schools that are 90% free and reduced lunch are at an academic disadvantage to their counterparts!! And the sgregation gets worse as you down the grades to the elementary level. But let me get off my soap box!! WSP in the beginning didnt have football so they were able to even start basketball 2 or 3 weeks before the other schools could and they offered the opportunity to win a ring!! Kids in Forsyth has recognized the difficulty in winning titles on the 4A level in anything because of Charlotte so the right coaches have seeked opportunities at the lower classified schools. Atkins have the same advantages but their principle stress academics and he will not let kids into his school if they cant perform academically which is making it hard to build their athletic teams. WSP has an us against the world mentality since it feels ignored academically by the "system" so they focus an take pride in their basketball programs. I say programs cause it wont be long before the girls are doing what the boys are!! The kids gravitate towards the successful programs and their success just continues. We(Im a Carver guy) enjoyed this in football during the late 90's and 00's. We feel that we are returning to our glory days under new coach Crowell cause we are receiving transfers like the good ole days!!!
 
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