Albemarle's Future?

[bulldog nation2014]

When I graduated college I knew several who majored in working at Hobby Lobby and TJ Maxx! Nothing says you have a booming economy like bringing in cheap retail stores! Come on nation... I'm referring to industry and professional job opportunities. You are still thinking narrow mind set. You have to look at things bigger than you are. Yeah it sucks but you have yet to explain what the draw to Albemarle is except your feelings are hurt if it closes. You can go on and on about nothing, and you have btw, but the bottom line is the bottom line. Money talks.

And bulls*** walks. Point being you are not going locate a business here if you are not going to be profitable. Hell by your analysis they should have put them in Richfield by Walmart express lol.

I would love your analysis in closing AHS over NS?

Also to be known I'm not from here but I am concerned about the academics. And what I see is a bias towards AHS and it is a strong one. I see 0 being done to better our academics. That is my problem. To be clear I see kids in mobile units when they don't need to be, kids eating outside because they have to who don't need to be, I see a failing school system by majority when it doesn't need to be. Furthermore I see a lack of focus on what needs to be done instead a focus on what my click wants done. My analysis was not bias or showing favoritism in anyway. If I thought my kids would get a better education by plan A or plan B I would be all for it. The fact of the matter is the plans don't address the problems, it will essentially create more problems. Yes I will be upset and definitely look at my other options if AHS is closed not because the school was closed but because they have shown a blatient bias and disregard for what these kids in our county need to be successful. They are not addressing the fundamental problems in our education system. They are failing through this mess every kid in the county.

 

[steady99]

I do not think subdivisions should be split up. I think students should attend the school closest to them unless there is a major geograpical or logistical reason for the where the line is drawn. The neighborhood that runs between Highway 52 and Snuggs Park Road is one of the main ones in question. One of my complaints has been West students traveling farther to WSMS and WSHS than they would AMS and AHS to school. I would not fight that and then move students and do the opposite.

The issue when North, located just over five miles from AHS, closes is the disbursement of the students. Geographically speaking AHS is much easier split and I think it should be to two schools as West would only receive a few students from its district lines with North and possibly South.

If the AHS building and grounds were located where NSHS I think the decision would be much easier as I am not sold the county seat requires the a high school to be physically located inside its city limits. The reason I would have support for AHS staying open if a school is closing is due to the facility and available land. Even if you sent 90% or even every NSHS student to AHS and could add the needed classroom space to accomodate them you still have the same item I have brought up numerous times, SSHS, which will still be limited on the numbers they can attain within a reasonable district with expanded lines.

Agree with just about all of this. I think the problem of the county seat lacking a high school is being overstated. Doubt that the closing of AHS would have a material impact on property values. Also, the retail going in on 24/27 is not going in because Albemarle's economy is booming. You need only look at the type of stores opening to understand that. And no doubt those stores are expecting to draw from western Montgomery and northern Anson.

Someday in the distant future the whole I-85 corridor from RTP to Atlanta will be a massive urban area along the lines of the I-95 corridor in MD/PA/NJ/NYC. Even with the widening of NC 49, I am skeptical that Stanly County will experience much spillover from the growth of that corridor. If it happens it will happen over a very long period of time. Assuming that Charlotte's growth continues at a steady rate, western Stanly will see an increase in its high-school age population. As to the eastern two-thirds of the county, I think the demographic status quo is likely to persist for a while. The future of eastern Stanly is as a playground (think Uwharries, Badin Lake, Morrow Mountain) for folks from other areas around the state, and not much else as far as I can tell. The manufacturing jobs are not coming back. That ship has sailed.

Montgomery County may fare much better than Stanly over the next fifty years with the development of I-74. A huge number of people from the Midwest go to Myrtle Beach, and that road will someday be the one that gets them there (especially if WV and OH ever follow through on their portions of the project). Years ago, somebody told me a story about how Stanly County missed a chance to have I-74 follow the route of US 52 instead of US 220. Do not remember all the details, but I have recalled that story often in reading about the decline of jobs in Stanly.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

Agree with just about all of this. I think the problem of the county seat lacking a high school is being overstated. Doubt that the closing of AHS would have a material impact on property values. Also, the retail going in on 24/27 is not going in because Albemarle's economy is booming. You need only look at the type of stores opening to understand that. And no doubt those stores are expecting to draw from western Montgomery and northern Anson.

Someday in the distant future the whole I-85 corridor from RTP to Atlanta will be a massive urban area along the lines of the I-95 corridor in MD/PA/NJ/NYC. Even with the widening of NC 49, I am skeptical that Stanly County will experience much spillover from the growth of that corridor. If it happens it will happen over a very long period of time. Assuming that Charlotte's growth continues at a steady rate, western Stanly will see an increase in its high-school age population. As to the eastern two-thirds of the county, I think the demographic status quo is likely to persist for a while. The future of eastern Stanly is as a playground (think Uwharries, Badin Lake, Morrow Mountain) for folks from other areas around the state, and not much else as far as I can tell. The manufacturing jobs are not coming back. That ship has sailed.

Montgomery County may fare much better than Stanly over the next fifty years with the development of I-74. A huge number of people from the Midwest go to Myrtle Beach, and that road will someday be the one that gets them there (especially if WV and OH ever follow through on their portions of the project). Years ago, somebody told me a story about how Stanly County missed a chance to have I-74 follow the route of US 52 instead of US 220. Do not remember all the details, but I have recalled that story often in reading about the decline of jobs in Stanly.

Why does that not surprise me in regards to 74. Also I never said Albemarle is or will be booming. It will show a minimal growth but I don't believe it will boom or even decrease past what it is now. I believe with the right leadership in place stanly can get manufacturing jobs in place but I'm not sure if that is currently in place or who that would be.

In regards to not having a HS that is not an opinion that's a consistency in all the research completed after a town closes its HS. There will be a negative impact economically, unless Albemarle is completely different from all of these other small towns nationwide that have closed a HS. I actually read one article I believe it was in NH that had a small one room school I forget the amount of students it had but it was in a small town of course and even that school closing had a negative impact on that town.

I guess the question is if the HS closes and we see a decrease of 25% property values and a decrease of 10% retail sales additionally academically our schools don't get better costs go up and essentially have students struggle more as the research suggests what have we accomplished? How many more businesses and jobs will we lose? At that point how much money will we lose out of our school budget? What's next? What companies then would want to come in?

This isn't a guess as to what could happen this is what the research has shown. You can sit there and say I don't think this will happen, but when you have research after research showing this has happened, then what?

Anson consolidated schools right? I seen the new numbers and it looks like they will be dropping to 2a now? How's there academic progress? What's their report card like better or worse after consolidation?

 

[btango]

Anson consolidated? Yes, nearly 40 years ago. There was Anson County HS and Wadesboro Bowman. The move to consolidate into one system came from integration resulting in one high school. Anson County has one high school which is on the western edge of Wadesboro. It may be in the city limits now but was not when it was initially built. The current Anson HS was the site of the previous Anson County High School that served the county students. That site became a junior high school and Bowman, which served as the city system high school, became the high schoo with the consolidation of the systems. Improvements at the current high school allowed them to close Bowman and move the high school to its current site as a 9-12. Anson County HS probably mirrors AHS much more each year than it ever has. Wadesboro was a fairly prosperous town in the 1950's and back. Heavy textile and also a railroad hub. You can trace the enrollment decline with losing railroad and textile jobs. Anson was a 4A school into the 2000's. (They may have dipped into their current 3A classification one time previously.) That was thirty years after the schools consolidated.

Richmond County consolidated into one high school from four for the 1972-73 school year. Two high schools, Rockingham and Hamlet, were larger and very competitive with one another being located in the south central and south east section of the county. Ellerbe was in the northern area of the county. A lot of angst with moving the 10-12 classes to Richmond Senior. Now the school is the gem of the county. What is happening at Albemarle went across NC during the late 1950's into the 1970's. Schools that were very small being combined with other like schools.

 

[btango]

I understand the theory on real estate values very well but when the academics of the schools in town is a reason that professionals give for not moving into the town the values are already threatened. I do believe that if AHS boundary is extended to the west the housing values in that area will drop at steeper percentage than the home values in the AHS district if AHS closes. I do not think the BOE's job is to determine opening and closing of schools on the economical aspect as the BOE and school administrators job in modern America is to provide the best education possible within the budget they have to work with. The chamber of commerce of the county and towns along with the city / town councils, county commissioners, and economic development need to work with the BOE to ensure economic stability and growth. Many people think that closing AHS will improve the school system overall and the academics which will lure more business development and professionals. I am not fully in agreement with that but the current AHS is not and has not been a magnet for economic growth nor has it been for an extended period.

Speak to some people that work in recruiting type positions from a few of the larger employers and hear the feedback they are getting when they speak to potential hires at the management level. It was shocking to me but well educated higher earners are skeptical about moving to Stanly County and Albemarle specifically.

 

[sway1532]

Another big meeting tomorrow. Will attend and give any information I can. Thanks in advance.

 

[btango]

Someday in the distant future the whole I-85 corridor from RTP to Atlanta will be a massive urban area along the lines of the I-95 corridor in MD/PA/NJ/NYC. Even with the widening of NC 49, I am skeptical that Stanly County will experience much spillover from the growth of that corridor. If it happens it will happen over a very long period of time. Assuming that Charlotte's growth continues at a steady rate, western Stanly will see an increase in its high-school age population. As to the eastern two-thirds of the county, I think the demographic status quo is likely to persist for a while. The future of eastern Stanly is as a playground (think Uwharries, Badin Lake, Morrow Mountain) for folks from other areas around the state, and not much else as far as I can tell. The manufacturing jobs are not coming back. That ship has sailed.

Montgomery County may fare much better than Stanly over the next fifty years with the development of I-74. A huge number of people from the Midwest go to Myrtle Beach, and that road will someday be the one that gets them there (especially if WV and OH ever follow through on their portions of the project).

I agree with your thoughts. I do think the western most section of northern Stanly County is where the growth will be due to the growth and employment opportunities in the University Area, Kannapolis, and somewhat Concord. Mt Pleasant I would expect to see growth first but I do think you will see some development jump into Stanly County.

I think Stanly County needs to really pump up their access to the outdoors. That could be a bigger draw for empty nesters and more visitors. Great natural areas available in the area.

Star through Biscoe and down to Cander are ripe to see growth with I-74. It has already happened to some extent and Troy is drying up.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I understand the theory on real estate values very well but when the academics of the schools in town is a reason that professionals give for not moving into the town the values are already threatened. I do believe that if AHS boundary is extended to the west the housing values in that area will drop at steeper percentage than the home values in the AHS district if AHS closes. I do not think the BOE's job is to determine opening and closing of schools on the economical aspect as the BOE and school administrators job in modern America is to provide the best education possible within the budget they have to work with. The chamber of commerce of the county and towns along with the city / town councils, county commissioners, and economic development need to work with the BOE to ensure economic stability and growth. Many people think that closing AHS will improve the school system overall and the academics which will lure more business development and professionals. I am not fully in agreement with that but the current AHS is not and has not been a magnet for economic growth nor has it been for an extended period.

Speak to some people that work in recruiting type positions from a few of the larger employers and hear the feedback they are getting when they speak to potential hires at the management level. It was shocking to me but well educated higher earners are skeptical about moving to Stanly County and Albemarle specifically.

Btango once again I appreciate and respect your opinion. These studies are facts that have happened in regards to closing the HS in a city.

Additionally I am one of those people you speak about coming into Albemarle and the reason I came in and I can tell you from experience it's less about Albemarle and more about the quality of education the kids are getting and decision making process or the lack there of from the BOE. There is no secret of the bias towards AHS which has hampered any positive growth. So as a professional with that kind of mess going on towards AHS why would you want to put your kids in the middle of that? Most of what AHS is going through has a lot to do with the decisions or lack there of in regards to the BOE.

Since moving here I had the opportunity to really research the area and its history as I find it extremely interesting to do so. Something interesting is the dislike of people from the west side of the county towards Albemarle is something that dates way back into the history of Stanly county. Anyway I found the history very interesting especially looking at the present events. I also seen one stat that I is really interesting to me and that is that more people stay in Stanly county (born live and die) than any other county in NC.

Anyway, in regards to the economic impact being negative this is what has shown in study after study. You close AHS you have to make an immediate 7.5 million dollar investment to even move these kids that does not include repairs that need to be done to WS and NS that totals about $14.5 million of the $20 million budget. Also that does not include the $2 mil already out into NS to close in outdoor classrooms but yet we still have kids in mobile units and being forced to eating outside.

You talk about the rep of AHS well I would urge you to look at stanly county schools and their rep. Once again no phonics reading books but storage rooms full of construction paper

 

[sway1532]

Tango I have a question, how can a company like Preformed Lines exist in Albemarle and no other career industry. Where did Albemarle lose it's drive to add more companies like this? I know PFL pays $20/hr or more for some positions....

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I would like to note that the real estate decline is not a theory but a matter of factual evidence by shuttering a HS in a city/town. These studies were done after the shuttering of the schools to see if their was a positive negative or no impact to communities economically. These studies also showed an increase in education costs and no real gain academically and actually a loss.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

Just a bit of what I found:

• Sixty percent of the communities with schools saw population growth from 1990 to 2000; only 46 percent of those without schools grew.
• Average housing values in the communities with schools are 25 percent higher than in those without schools. Their houses are newer, and more likely to be served by municipal water and sewer systems.
• Communities with schools enjoy higher per capita incomes, a more equal distribution of income, less per capita income from public assistance, less poverty and less child poverty.
• Communities with schools have more professional, managerial, and executive workers; more households with self-employment income; 57 percent higher per capita income from self- employment; a higher percentage of residents who work in the village; and fewer workers who commute more than 15 minutes to their jobs.
  The differences between larger rural communities with schools and those without were similar, but not as extreme as the differences in the smaller communities.

An earlier similar study reached similar conclusions. Dreier and Goudy (1994) compared population changes in incorporated Iowa towns that had or did not have a high school. Half the communities with a high school gained a significant amount (5 percent or more) of population over 2 or more decades while three-fourths of communities without a high school were losing population. They concluded that a community without a high school loses population faster than all communities losing population during the same time period.

Sederberg (1987) studied the secondary economic impacts of school districts in six rural Minnesota counties and found:

• School district payroll ranged from 4-9 percent of total county payroll.
• Total take-home pay from school district jobs ranged from 5-10 percent of the counties' retail sales.
• School district expenditures ranged from 1-3 percent of total retail sales.
• People employed by the school district ranged from 1-5 percent of all employed people in the counties.

Finally, Petkovich and Ching (1977) examined changes in retail sales and total labor supply that could be expected if the local high school in an agricultural community in Nevada were closed. An input-output model constructed from survey data predicted that closing the high school would produce an eight percent decrease in retail sales and a six percent decrease in labor supply.

Conclusion

School and school district consolidation produces fewer fiscal benefits and more fiscal costs than is popularly believed. Administrative cost savings are most likely, but these savings may often be largely offset by other cost increases, especially for transportation. Consolidating schools can also adversely affect the local economy, reducing the fiscal capacity of the school district. These costs are disproportionately imposed on poor and minority communities.

 

[btango]

Tango I have a question, how can a company like Preformed Lines exist in Albemarle and no other career industry. Where did Albemarle lose it's drive to add more companies like this? I know PFL pays $20/hr or more for some positions....

sway I am really not sure of the specifics but Preformed Line is headquartered, or was, in Ohio I do believe. The opening of the PFL plant was probably negotiated when Mr Oaks was the leader of economic development. Sharp guy that did a lot of good work. I think he passed away while still in that position. I have heard before that when he died things dropped off but the economic drop may have been relative to many other influences. I think part of the reason for PFL remaining is they are established and set. Brinigng in new employers that pay a decent wage seems to be the fight.

$20 an hour is equal to making $41,600 without overtime but a job with benefits (insurance, 401k, and paid vacation + holidays).

 

[btango]

nation, tell me what you think of this scenario. I have brought it up before. It is not feasible due to money but if the money were available what would be your idea of this?

Plan Two New High School.

New high school built on the Connector and one closer to Locust which is now the largest section of the population.

AHS becomes AMS. AMS becomes East ES.
SSHS becomes SSMS. SSMS becomes SS Elementary School with Aquadale and Norwood closing.
NSHS becomes NSMS. NSMS is used to redo the elementary school make up in that area. Badin closes with some of their students sent to East ES.
WSHS becomes WSHS. Oakboro moves to the current WSMS along with some of the students from Locust.
Connector HS is AHS, NSHS, and SSHS.
New WSHS takes in some NSHS students that live in the western area of the NS district toward Ridgecrest/Endy/Locust.

Connector has a little less than 1,400 students.
New WSHS has right at 1,100 but is built along the same lines and size as Connector with room to grow as that area expands.

Two new high schools centrally located to the population centers.
State of the art with facilities with room to expand. Awesome athletic facilities especially the gym.
New school name for Connector HS. New mascot and school colors.
Connector would have a smaller stadium for soccer and track. Current AHS stadium would continue to be used for football games.

Would you support this plan if the money were available?

 

[bulldog nation2014]

nation, tell me what you think of this scenario. I have brought it up before. It is not feasible due to money but if the money were available what would be your idea of this?

Plan Two New High School.

New high school built on the Connector and one closer to Locust which is now the largest section of the population.

AHS becomes AMS. AMS becomes East ES.
SSHS becomes SSMS. SSMS becomes SS Elementary School with Aquadale and Norwood closing.
NSHS becomes NSMS. NSMS is used to redo the elementary school make up in that area. Badin closes with some of their students sent to East ES.
WSHS becomes WSHS. Oakboro moves to the current WSMS along with some of the students from Locust.
Connector HS is AHS, NSHS, and SSHS.
New WSHS takes in some NSHS students that live in the western area of the NS district toward Ridgecrest/Endy/Locust.

Connector has a little less than 1,400 students.
New WSHS has right at 1,100 but is built along the same lines and size as Connector with room to grow as that area expands.

Two new high schools centrally located to the population centers.
State of the art with facilities with room to expand. Awesome athletic facilities especially the gym.
New school name for Connector HS. New mascot and school colors.
Connector would have a smaller stadium for soccer and track. Current AHS stadium would continue to be used for football games.

Would you support this plan if the money were available?

Your right I vaguely remember this and I think I said before that would be great if it were inside the city limits, but not sure. After researching as I did I don't think that is a good idea. I have found through the analysis I have done (I am sure you are familiar with the P.E.S.T analysis) an research that 4 HS is a great things for this area. The main reason is because of demographics. I also did analysis on closing one HS and my analysis pointed to NSHS would be the best one to close of all the HS.

We have 2 rural schools (WS and NS) and 2 community schools (SS and AHS).

I do believe we need to look at some of our early schools and align them properly and redistrict as a whole. I am strongly against closing oakboro.

The problem here is that there is a fundamental problem in our academics from bottom to top. There is waste, a lack of communication with parents, and a lack of focus on the early principles in education that create a strong foundation for our youth to learn. We can have Dallas Cowboys stadium on Ohio states campus and it's not going to fix the issues we have. What breaks my heart and makes me sick is that we don't have a focus on ALL of the kids of stanly county and how to better their education.

Student population wise you can redistrict and solve that and get all the kids out of mobile units we have the space.

 

[sway1532]

@bulldog nation2014, quick question, why aren't you on the BOE? I believe their will be 5 open seats coming up. You would be great.

 

[exsshs]

Btang0

@bulldog nation2014, quick question, why aren't you on the BOE? I believe their will be 5 open seats coming up. You would be great.[/QUOTE

@bulldog nation2014, quick question, why aren't you on the BOE? I believe their will be 5 open seats coming up. You would be great.

Btango - if the 2 HS schools came about as you mention above, the Connector school would beat the heck out of WS in most every sport. No relevance just a comment.

 

[btango]

Your right I vaguely remember this and I think I said before that would be great if it were inside the city limits, but not sure. After researching as I did I don't think that is a good idea. I have found through the analysis I have done (I am sure you are familiar with the P.E.S.T analysis) an research that 4 HS is a great things for this area. The main reason is because of demographics. I also did analysis on closing one HS and my analysis pointed to NSHS would be the best one to close of all the HS.

We have 2 rural schools (WS and NS) and 2 community schools (SS and AHS).

I do believe we need to look at some of our early schools and align them properly and redistrict as a whole. I am strongly against closing oakboro.

The problem here is that there is a fundamental problem in our academics from bottom to top. There is waste, a lack of communication with parents, and a lack of focus on the early principles in education that create a strong foundation for our youth to learn. We can have Dallas Cowboys stadium on Ohio states campus and it's not going to fix the issues we have. What breaks my heart and makes me sick is that we don't have a focus on ALL of the kids of stanly county and how to better their education.

Student population wise you can redistrict and solve that and get all the kids out of mobile units we have the space.

How do you consider South a community school and West or North a rural school? Do not get that at all.

Demographics? Explain how demographics are a great thing for four schools. I am not sure I totally follow your theory here.

I agree that the building and campus do not make the school but if everyone leaves their high school behind you do not have the political issues. I was just using that as a hypothetical.

I agree with redistricting from a fundamental basis but part of your reasoning for not closing AHS is loss of property value. Does that stand for the homeowner that lives in the West Stanly district east of Endy when his home is redistricted into the AHS district? is he going to lose 25% of his value? I would think that his home would drop more drastically than a house in the AHS district. The perception is his child will be attending an inferior school compared to the one they currently attend? The reason I do not agree with the 25% drop in the AHS district is because I think people are not buying in the AHS district due to the schools there.

Regarding your comments on western Stanly and their thoughts about Albemarle, I would agree with your thoughts on that and is basically part of the perception noted above. Note the folks in western Stanly are almost like that between the small towns there also. Locust is not Oakboro which is not Stanfield which is not Endy. Very territorial. The thoughts from the western area currently is Albemarle has its own problems and they see it the way much of the country sees it to some degree whether right or wrong. Your community has problems, do not expect us to fix them when you cannot do the basics yourself. They feel way too much money has been pumped into Albemarle citing mainly Central and AHS while their opinion is that their schools have not received equal financial assistance with Ridgecrest closing and the middle school (initially an elementary which was terrible planning by the previous school board) being inferior. I do not agree with that and as I have written, promise that Oakboro stays open and see how much support AHS and EAES receive from western Stanly. As long as they do not get students from those schools and they would not on Plan B they will be more than satisfied to move out of the discussion. It's politics and it makes for strange bedfellows.

 

[btango]

Btang0

Btango - if the 2 HS schools came about as you mention above, the Connector school would beat the heck out of WS in most every sport. No relevance just a comment.

I agree.

 

[BDHarris]

I'm thinking nation may have ulterior motives.....just saying. Not one thing in all of his fact finding, quotes etc...... has made it any clearer as to why Albemarle High should remain open. If nothing else he's made it clear that it should be closed. He may have out"smarted" himself!!!

 

[Thirdandten]

I have often read these boards but never posted. I have always enjoyed reading posts by Btango and while I have never met him have an utmost respect for Buddy Rich and his support of his Bulldogs.

The one thing that has been said by many that I agree with is that what needs to be addressed is the quality of the education that the children are getting, not what building that they are getting it in. There seems to be much more talk about closing schools, rather than why stanly county schools are continually performing below the state average.

To the earlier comments companies look at who they want to attract as employees and customers and whether a county offers those amenities such as a quality school system.

Many rural areas in other states have substantially grown because emerging families chose to live 45 minutes from the city and drive in to work so that they could have their children in the best school system. We are in a much different position.

From my understanding and reviewing information online we have one of the best charter schools in graystone in our county, there seems to be little discussion or planning on how to replicate even some of their offerings in our county schools.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

@bulldog nation2014, quick question, why aren't you on the BOE? I believe their will be 5 open seats coming up. You would be great.

That's not my cup of tea I work with kids. Too honest to be a politician

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I'm thinking nation may have ulterior motives.....just saying. Not one thing in all of his fact finding, quotes etc...... has made it any clearer as to why Albemarle High should remain open. If nothing else he's made it clear that it should be closed. He may have out"smarted" himself!!!

Yes BD you caught the tater LOL ulterior motives you got me. Has nothing to do with having 3 kids in the school system.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

How do you consider South a community school and West or North a rural school? Do not get that at all.

Demographics? Explain how demographics are a great thing for four schools. I am not sure I totally follow your theory here.

I agree that the building and campus do not make the school but if everyone leaves their high school behind you do not have the political issues. I was just using that as a hypothetical.

I agree with redistricting from a fundamental basis but part of your reasoning for not closing AHS is loss of property value. Does that stand for the homeowner that lives in the West Stanly district east of Endy when his home is redistricted into the AHS district? is he going to lose 25% of his value? I would think that his home would drop more drastically than a house in the AHS district. The perception is his child will be attending an inferior school compared to the one they currently attend? The reason I do not agree with the 25% drop in the AHS district is because I think people are not buying in the AHS district due to the schools there.

Regarding your comments on western Stanly and their thoughts about Albemarle, I would agree with your thoughts on that and is basically part of the perception noted above. Note the folks in western Stanly are almost like that between the small towns there also. Locust is not Oakboro which is not Stanfield which is not Endy. Very territorial. The thoughts from the western area currently is Albemarle has its own problems and they see it the way much of the country sees it to some degree whether right or wrong. Your community has problems, do not expect us to fix them when you cannot do the basics yourself. They feel way too much money has been pumped into Albemarle citing mainly Central and AHS while their opinion is that their schools have not received equal financial assistance with Ridgecrest closing and the middle school (initially an elementary which was terrible planning by the previous school board) being inferior. I do not agree with that and as I have written, promise that Oakboro stays open and see how much support AHS and EAES receive from western Stanly. As long as they do not get students from those schools and they would not on Plan B they will be more than satisfied to move out of the discussion. It's politics and it makes for strange bedfellows.

In regards to the information I posted that was from a study not me. Those are findings from across the country in communities such as Albemarle and counties like Stanly. Hundreds of schools were researched after consolidation and these were the findings which have not changed from the 70's to the present. I didn't make that stuff up those are facts sir.

To be honest if closing a school regardless of which one would benefit us academically I would be supportive. AHS is the wrong school to close when shuttering a school you must account for all impacts which is why the council and commissioners must be involved. The PEST analysis is the best analysis when evaluating this particular situation. Closing AHS will most certainly have a negative impact economically on Albemarle.

Now my opinion through the analysis I did was NS would be the one to close it would have the least amount of negative impact throughout. Like I said previously I am not for closing any of the schools as of right now. For one we need to focus on the fundamental academic issues of our schools. Secondly we need to redistrict. If we focus on those two things we have an opportunity right now immediately to make a positive impact.

Closing a school combining four into 2 will not solve the fundamental problems we have academically.

In regards to the previous post about gray stone. They are getting the cream of the crop academically you have to be able to do the work to be in there. They are not taking poor kids that don't have the means. You don't see any kids from Amherst in there.

People move 45 minutes away for smaller community schools in which their kids won't be just a number. Typically these smaller schools are much more effective in teaching kids.

 

[Thirdandten]

In regards to your graystone comment, if they have roughly 400 kids and there are 2000 others in our public schools, while many may not have transportation or did not make the lottery I do not believe that there are any number of students that should not get those offerings, poor kids deserve the opportunity to strive as well. Although I would think that there is still a lot of cream of the crop (to use your description) that is not getting all that they deserve. My point was if the difference between a charter school and our public schools were not so great than the public school would not lose the cream of the crop as you put it and that would allow more to be offered to those who could not make the change.

There are many school systems 45 minutes from large cities that are everything but small. Most of the moves are because the cost of living is cheaper as you move away from the city, and the school system is often the deciding factor in which direction from the city that growth occurs. Most parents are looking for quality education that prepares there student for the next phase of their life. I would not think that size of school is as important as the quality of education.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

In regards to your graystone comment, if they have roughly 400 kids and there are 2000 others in our public schools, while many may not have transportation or did not make the lottery I do not believe that there are any number of students that should not get those offerings, poor kids deserve the opportunity to strive as well. Although I would think that there is still a lot of cream of the crop (to use your description) that is not getting all that they deserve. My point was if the difference between a charter school and our public schools were not so great than the public school would not lose the cream of the crop as you put it and that would allow more to be offered to those who could not make the change.

There are many school systems 45 minutes from large cities that are everything but small. Most of the moves are because the cost of living is cheaper as you move away from the city, and the school system is often the deciding factor in which direction from the city that growth occurs. Most parents are looking for quality education that prepares there student for the next phase of their life. I would not think that size of school is as important as the quality of education.

To some people they don't want their kids in big schools such as a butler they prefer smaller schools. I am one of those I prefer a smaller school that a kid is going to get smaller classrooms. I believe that this is a more effective education. However quality is also at the top of the list. Which is why I am watching this very closely.

Additionally I agree with you in regards to Graystone. 100%. All kids in our public schools should have the same opportunity. And the older kids do. I have kids with a very very tough schedule. But the difference is the kids in our public schools have to take online classes. Also I work with a lot of these kids you talk about. See AHS is not a bad school or have bad kids in it. Most of these kids are fantastic kids that just need people to work with them. Most of these people who talk negatively about the kids as a whole at AHS have never walked the halls or met a lot of these kids. People talk about AHS failing and being a terrible school academically, however they are 3pts behind NS on the report card and my guess is will pass NS this year which may be one reason the BOE is shoving this at such a rapid pace. Additionally you can't punish one school with a bad report card when all of your HS are not achieving.

I think we all agree that academics needs to come first, which its not. Closing or building brand new schools automatically don't make you achieve more in the classroom. I think the first step should be to redistrict and then focus on the fundamental items to increase the quality here in stanly county. Schools of excellence are doing something we are not. There are counties in their states I have brought up before that demographicall income wise and population are identical to stanly county. Yet all 4 of those HS are maintaining excellence, why? Have the powers to be looked into this?

 

[bulldog nation2014]

Here is what I am saying. Closing a HS especially one in your county seat should be a very last resort after all options have been looked at. I believe that you have to look at redistricting first and focus on the academic issues we have. I do know with kids you have to set a expectation of excellence and help them achieve that. I believe that we have a lot we can do in our schools to improve academically that really is not that expensive. We have options on the table that this BOE has not tried.

Closing a school is not a solution to better academics. Closing a school solves nothing.

 

[sway1532]

ACES is putting out some good info. They are drilling the BOE.

 

[Buddy Rich]

Why the mistrust between this BOE and the community? This question is paramount to what is going on. I think the public realizes that all of their doings have been behind closed doors and not at the board meetings. This has created the mistrust. Friends have told me they have seen Dr Griffin and Dr Mills having lunch on numerous occasions and were probably not discussing the weather or the menu. I have been to a board meeting and I was shocked at the lack of discussion between the board members. I get the feeling that these members are discussing this but by means of e-mails, phones,etc between each other. Therefor they have created this mistrust.
I would encourage everyone to go on facebook and read all of the information being released by ACES which is coming out almost hourly at this time. The board just released some more info recently. I think the next 2 weeks are critical as the board fully intends to make a decision probably in favor of PlanB. If they can show me how this will improve the education quality for our kids then I will listen. So far they have failed to do that. If Plan B is approved I look for ACES to take dire steps to prevent is't implantation, including law suits, etc. I would hate to see it come to this but I think it is a real possibility.

 

[sway1532]

I see lawsuits coming.

The Wicked Witch and her Gerber Baby better be mindful. People here in Stanly County believe they are impervious by anything and that they can do what they want, because my such and such family member is the such and fing such. But, their gonna learn today!

 

[btango]

All schools have great kids and all schools have troubled youths who are disruptive. Some have more extreme individuals and some have more of the different types. That is the way it is. AHS has some super young adults unfortunately they also have had some extreme negative ones as well. As soon as the student shot the other I think the momentum mounted. It is hard to take a population and use the average household income to justify anything as the incomes can vary so greatly that the average is not achieveable by sometime a few households combined. I would prefer to see grouping of income of student's households and that will tell you more.

I personally think the county as a whole is lagging badly on an education level. I know teachers and principals that are full throttle wanting to improve the situation but they are limited by what they have at their disposal and what they can do with students that cause issues. West Stanly is not a very good school but many will tell you different. I think that school does less with more. Just my opinion from looking at some data last year but I was somewhat shocked with some of what I saw at WSHS.

I do believe if we could see in the future and we saw AHS closed and it was an overall improvement and we could see AHS still open and it was much worse than now, there would be many that would still be against closing the school.

 

[btango]

As far as small schools go there are issues when they are "too small". Most information I have seen and educators I have spoken with at an admin level feel that a 9-12 high school normally needs about 800 students to have the academic offerings needed to fulfil the majority of the student's needs. If a school has a smaller amount of students and they fall into the same educational grouping it is not such an issue. Diversity is a word that I often see and it is mainly pointed at race and family income levels. If you have diversity you need to have the offerings so all students can meet their potential whether they are Harvard student or are going into a construction job after high school. On the flip side I have also been told that 1,600 to 1,800 students is about the maximum a 9-12 school's enrollment should be. Who knows what the optimal numbers are and I expect it depends on many variables.

As far as students attending a charter school and transportation it is often a sacrifice. I know a family where the mother quit her full time job so that she could get the children back and forth to Grey Stone. It hurt the family financially but they thought it was the best option for the children's benefit. Families can also opt for the early college at SCC. I think it depends a lot on what the student's needs and wants are.

 

[Buddy Rich]

I agree btango. I think the shooting at the school got this whole thing started. But since the shooter had been a previous student at WM it could just as easily have happened there or at any other school.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I agree btango. I think the shooting at the school got this whole thing started. But since the shooter had been a previous student at WM it could just as easily have happened there or at any other school.

I agree how that kid was able to attend AHS still baffles me. Before this incident has the ever been a shooting at AHS or any event AHS has held?

Let me ask you this Btango because there was an improvement from the previous year to last year what if AHS again shows improvement this year and passes NS maybe even SS as well then what? I know of many changes that have occurred and we do have a great freshman class in that academically seems to be acheiving very well. Let's say they are able to get to that mid c level or low B?

Is this BOE willing to move forward with shuttering the counties most improved school because it's name is AHS? If so wouldn't that again show an extreme bias and discrimination?

 

[btango]

Just a bit of what I found:

• Sixty percent of the communities with schools saw population growth from 1990 to 2000; only 46 percent of those without schools grew.
• Average housing values in the communities with schools are 25 percent higher than in those without schools. Their houses are newer, and more likely to be served by municipal water and sewer systems.
• Communities with schools enjoy higher per capita incomes, a more equal distribution of income, less per capita income from public assistance, less poverty and less child poverty.
• Communities with schools have more professional, managerial, and executive workers; more households with self-employment income; 57 percent higher per capita income from self- employment; a higher percentage of residents who work in the village; and fewer workers who commute more than 15 minutes to their jobs.
  The differences between larger rural communities with schools and those without were similar, but not as extreme as the differences in the smaller communities.

An earlier similar study reached similar conclusions. Dreier and Goudy (1994) compared population changes in incorporated Iowa towns that had or did not have a high school. Half the communities with a high school gained a significant amount (5 percent or more) of population over 2 or more decades while three-fourths of communities without a high school were losing population. They concluded that a community without a high school loses population faster than all communities losing population during the same time period.

Sederberg (1987) studied the secondary economic impacts of school districts in six rural Minnesota counties and found:

• School district payroll ranged from 4-9 percent of total county payroll.
• Total take-home pay from school district jobs ranged from 5-10 percent of the counties' retail sales.
• School district expenditures ranged from 1-3 percent of total retail sales.
• People employed by the school district ranged from 1-5 percent of all employed people in the counties.

Finally, Petkovich and Ching (1977) examined changes in retail sales and total labor supply that could be expected if the local high school in an agricultural community in Nevada were closed. An input-output model constructed from survey data predicted that closing the high school would produce an eight percent decrease in retail sales and a six percent decrease in labor supply.

Conclusion

School and school district consolidation produces fewer fiscal benefits and more fiscal costs than is popularly believed. Administrative cost savings are most likely, but these savings may often be largely offset by other cost increases, especially for transportation. Consolidating schools can also adversely affect the local economy, reducing the fiscal capacity of the school district. These costs are disproportionately imposed on poor and minority communities.

I just had a chance to read this. I have driven through rural areas of many midwestern states. There is no way to compare a study in rural Minnesota to Stanly County. Stanly County is not what I would consider rural compared to what I have seen in many of those areas.

It is also hard to find a community in NC that you can equally compare Albemarle with that does not have a high school although I have always thought Thomasville seemed to be close although a little larger student population. Thomasville mirrors Albemarle in many ways. I think the issue with T-ville is as its own school system it is limited on districting, which AHS should not be, and the town is losing "diversity" in its student population.

When looking at the items cited I see Albemarle as already dragging.

• Sixty percent of the communities with schools saw population growth from 1990 to 2000; only 46 percent of those without schools grew. Albemarle grew less than 7% in 25 years.
• Average housing values in the communities with schools are 25 percent higher than in those without schools. Their houses are newer, and more likely to be served by municipal water and sewer systems. Albemarle for the most part is older homes and I do not see a lot of new homes going in due to the high school remaining open if there are not significant changes made to the school. Few towns the size of Albemarle do not have water/sewer.
• Communities with schools enjoy higher per capita incomes, a more equal distribution of income, less per capita income from public assistance, less poverty and less child poverty. What town can we compare this to? I would say Albemarle is the exact currently the exact opposite of this.
• Communities with schools have more professional, managerial, and executive workers; more households with self-employment income; 57 percent higher per capita income from self- employment; a higher percentage of residents who work in the village; and fewer workers who commute more than 15 minutes to their jobs. I would say some of this is true for Albemarle but I would also venture that the majority of these people are not sending their children to AHS which is a problem. I think most people live in Albemarle because that is where they work.
  The differences between larger rural communities with schools and those without were similar, but not as extreme as the differences in the smaller communities. No idea on this one. Most people I know in rural Stanly go to at least Albemarle to work and in western Stanly usually to Concord or Charlotte.

 

[btango]

I agree how that kid was able to attend AHS still baffles me. Before this incident has the ever been a shooting at AHS or any event AHS has held?

Let me ask you this Btango because there was an improvement from the previous year to last year what if AHS again shows improvement this year and passes NS maybe even SS as well then what? I know of many changes that have occurred and we do have a great freshman class in that academically seems to be acheiving very well. Let's say they are able to get to that mid c level or low B?

I agree btango. I think the shooting at the school got this whole thing started. But since the shooter had been a previous student at WM it could just as easily have happened there or at any other school.

Absolutely, it could have happened at any school but it didn't and it was a student with a troubled past that was admitted to the school. It also was based on illegal activity between the perpetrator and the victim. Shootings in school are normally not an African America student doing the shooting and it is normally pointed at a group not one person. I would expect a school shooting to just as likely happen at West Stanly as AHS but it didn't. A lot of it is perception and not the actual facts.

nation, I think you, like I, do not really see this is totally an academic issue but our belief is for different reasons.

I also do not think test scores show the true story, whether good or bad. One concern with AHS test scores would be the students they lost and the students that were gained by the other schools from AHS.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I just had a chance to read this. I have driven through rural areas of many midwestern states. There is no way to compare a study in rural Minnesota to Stanly County. Stanly County is not what I would consider rural compared to what I have seen in many of those areas.

It is also hard to find a community in NC that you can equally compare Albemarle with that does not have a high school although I have always thought Thomasville seemed to be close although a little larger student population. Thomasville mirrors Albemarle in many ways. I think the issue with T-ville is as its own school system it is limited on districting, which AHS should not be, and the town is losing "diversity" in its student population.

When looking at the items cited I see Albemarle as already dragging.

• Sixty percent of the communities with schools saw population growth from 1990 to 2000; only 46 percent of those without schools grew. Albemarle grew less than 7% in 25 years.
• Average housing values in the communities with schools are 25 percent higher than in those without schools. Their houses are newer, and more likely to be served by municipal water and sewer systems. Albemarle for the most part is older homes and I do not see a lot of new homes going in due to the high school remaining open if there are not significant changes made to the school. Few towns the size of Albemarle do not have water/sewer.
• Communities with schools enjoy higher per capita incomes, a more equal distribution of income, less per capita income from public assistance, less poverty and less child poverty. What town can we compare this to? I would say Albemarle is the exact currently the exact opposite of this.
• Communities with schools have more professional, managerial, and executive workers; more households with self-employment income; 57 percent higher per capita income from self- employment; a higher percentage of residents who work in the village; and fewer workers who commute more than 15 minutes to their jobs. I would say some of this is true for Albemarle but I would also venture that the majority of these people are not sending their children to AHS which is a problem. I think most people live in Albemarle because that is where they work.
  The differences between larger rural communities with schools and those without were similar, but not as extreme as the differences in the smaller communities. No idea on this one. Most people I know in rural Stanly go to at least Albemarle to work and in western Stanly usually to Concord or Charlotte.

See you are debating opinion with facts. These studies that formed the conclusion are from 100's of schools closed across the country. Let's be clear this is your opinion compared to facts that have occurred from similar situations. But this is easily debatable with facts that consolidation is beneficial economically to an incorporated town without a HS and it's beneficial academically to poorer minority communities.

 

[btango]

See you are debating opinion with facts. These studies that formed the conclusion are from 100's of schools closed across the country. Let's be clear this is your opinion compared to facts that have occurred from similar situations. But this is easily debatable with facts that consolidation is beneficial economically to an incorporated town without a HS and it's beneficial academically to poorer minority communities.

I am not disputing the findings of the study but my point is that Albemarle is already in a terrible situation with the high school in place. Sure, it may get worse but the point is that too many people are opting for alternative educational opportunities and it is normally parents that are very involved in school activities and support it financially as well. I think a true comparable is to look at data that takes into account the perceptions of the schools in the town.

I have written numerous times, people with financial means that value education are too often not moving to Albemarle when they take employment there or they actually opt not to take the job offer. That is the issue for the town. Executives are not moving businesses there for numerous reasons, not just the school. I can tell you part of it is that it is viewed as an unfriendly relationship between government and business. Prime example given to me by a business owner was the stink with the city council, county commissioners, and state rep regarding some things that he felt would help draw business and especially noted the broadband issue. Many thought the businesses should pay for it. News flash, they are most likely not coming if you do not have the infrastructure in place. Much like on the national scale there is a major disconnect between right and left but in this case it seemed to be the supposed business friendly group that was against the expenditure.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I am not disputing the findings of the study but my point is that Albemarle is already in a terrible situation with the high school in place. Sure, it may get worse but the point is that too many people are opting for alternative educational opportunities and it is normally parents that are very involved in school activities and support it financially as well. I think a true comparable is to look at data that takes into account the perceptions of the schools in the town.

I have written numerous times, people with financial means that value education are too often not moving to Albemarle when they take employment there or they actually opt not to take the job offer. That is the issue for the town. Executives are not moving businesses there for numerous reasons, not just the school. I can tell you part of it is that it is viewed as an unfriendly relationship between government and business. Prime example given to me by a business owner was the stink with the city council, county commissioners, and state rep regarding some things that he felt would help draw business and especially noted the broadband issue. Many thought the businesses should pay for it. News flash, they are most likely not coming if you do not have the infrastructure in place. Much like on the national scale there is a major disconnect between right and left but in this case it seemed to be the supposed business friendly group that was against the expenditure.

We agree on the perception but where is the perception coming from? It's not the people in the school. Additionally, there were quite a few people that left the school this year because they didn't want there kids constantly worrying about or in the middle of this with the BOE. They were tired of all the crap. If the BOE came out and said we are going to redistrict schools will remain open and did not do the open enrollment you would not have seen the people leaving the school.

Additionally from the western end of the county is their perception justified or is it because of the income and diversity of the school? If AHS continues to improve as they showed this past year and gets even to the mid C level I believe you not only make it impossible to close because of the amount of bias an discrimination it would show but also make those people speaking of this so called perception looking awfully questionable especially in the BOE and on.

Let's put this into perspective. NS facility needs the most repair if AHS passes them up you would also have them being the most underperforming school in the county and then you add in AHS decorated athletic accomplishments on top of it being in the county seat and through the studies see the potential for negative economic impacts you have 0 justification to close it. If you do that speaks to bias an discrimination directly. IMO that is why the BOE is shoving this through before the report cards come out.

 

[bulldog nation2014]

I am not disputing the findings of the study but my point is that Albemarle is already in a terrible situation with the high school in place. Sure, it may get worse but the point is that too many people are opting for alternative educational opportunities and it is normally parents that are very involved in school activities and support it financially as well. I think a true comparable is to look at data that takes into account the perceptions of the schools in the town.

I have written numerous times, people with financial means that value education are too often not moving to Albemarle when they take employment there or they actually opt not to take the job offer. That is the issue for the town. Executives are not moving businesses there for numerous reasons, not just the school. I can tell you part of it is that it is viewed as an unfriendly relationship between government and business. Prime example given to me by a business owner was the stink with the city council, county commissioners, and state rep regarding some things that he felt would help draw business and especially noted the broadband issue. Many thought the businesses should pay for it. News flash, they are most likely not coming if you do not have the infrastructure in place. Much like on the national scale there is a major disconnect between right and left but in this case it seemed to be the supposed business friendly group that was against the expenditure.

We do agree on a lot of this. Things must clean up in order to grow.

 

[btango]

The two big issues with closing a high school in Stanly County is Albemarle losing the school that is in the county seat along with the geographical and logistical issues faced if South were closed. It is also apparent that AHS is the best campus and building for both condition and expansion (except for the gym and on campus non football athletic facilities). The issue closing North is the disbursement of the student body in great numbers from a geographical standpoint and the available space at Albemarle. North closes but AHS will need to district about 30% of their student body in the south easten section of the current district to South Stanly along with some redistricting of the North district in limited numbers to South and West. The disbursement of AHS students is due to due to keeping South viable and in line with the other two high schools and due to the size of a North/Albemarle combined student body. About 15-20% of the current North student body can be redistricted with the largest group to West and a smaller portion to South due to the small population density in the southeast area of the North district.

There is a precedent that resembles this in Mint Hill with the opening of Rocky River HS. It is not perfect and although the BOE may be totally on the wrong path they have taken there are issues that will take some form of compromise.