Ask the Ref Abusive fans make it tougher to recruit high school sports refs
- Thread starter Deana_King
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GOLDEN CROSS (Poster says)
Officiating is the only avocation I know of where the fans can scream the most vile and ugly things at you and it is considered part of their admission price. Try doing that at Food Lion or Wal*Mart and they will call the cops. I have seen a lot of young guys come into officiating and leave fairly soon. They are not willing to put up with idiots for a small check.
Officiating is the only avocation I know of where the fans can scream the most vile and ugly things at you and it is considered part of their admission price. Try doing that at Food Lion or Wal*Mart and they will call the cops. I have seen a lot of young guys come into officiating and leave fairly soon. They are not willing to put up with idiots for a small check.
DIDDYDONTPLAY (Poster says)
I have the most vile and ugly things yelled at me everyday...........but enough about my wife. Let's talk Refs. As long as they actually know the rules, I'm happy. When they mark off 24 yards for too many men on the field setting up the winning FG kick in the 4AA Eastern Final.......well.....I get a little testy. As long as they are fair, know the rules and avoid throwing flags on questionable penalties away from the action, I'm cool. I would make a lousy Ref but I'm smart enough to stay off the field
I have the most vile and ugly things yelled at me everyday...........but enough about my wife. Let's talk Refs. As long as they actually know the rules, I'm happy. When they mark off 24 yards for too many men on the field setting up the winning FG kick in the 4AA Eastern Final.......well.....I get a little testy. As long as they are fair, know the rules and avoid throwing flags on questionable penalties away from the action, I'm cool. I would make a lousy Ref but I'm smart enough to stay off the field
FBREF (Poster says)
First, there are situations where 12 men on the field could be marked off so that appears it was 24 yards, if in fact that's the penalty that was called..
Second, what is a questionable call usually depends on what team you're pulling for.
First, there are situations where 12 men on the field could be marked off so that appears it was 24 yards, if in fact that's the penalty that was called..
Second, what is a questionable call usually depends on what team you're pulling for.
DIDDYDONTPLAY (Poster says)
The ball was punted and it rolled dead. The whistle was blown as players were coming on and leaving the field. The chains and the down marker were already moved and the official told the Coach that the flag was for too many men on the field. The problem was the refs forgot where the ball was spotted and walked off a 15 yard penalty but 9 yards further down field than the correct spot resulting in a 24 yard penalty. The beneficiary of this call was Wake Forest. They ran 3 more plays for little yardage then they kicked the winning FG that barely cleared the cross bar. They won by 2 points and went on to get clobbered by Mallard Creek in the State Championship when it should have been Middle Creeks reward to get clobbered. The 24 yard penalty was documented in a Raleigh News and Observer article
The ball was punted and it rolled dead. The whistle was blown as players were coming on and leaving the field. The chains and the down marker were already moved and the official told the Coach that the flag was for too many men on the field. The problem was the refs forgot where the ball was spotted and walked off a 15 yard penalty but 9 yards further down field than the correct spot resulting in a 24 yard penalty. The beneficiary of this call was Wake Forest. They ran 3 more plays for little yardage then they kicked the winning FG that barely cleared the cross bar. They won by 2 points and went on to get clobbered by Mallard Creek in the State Championship when it should have been Middle Creeks reward to get clobbered. The 24 yard penalty was documented in a Raleigh News and Observer article
FBREF (Poster says)
Losing the the spot in such a case is not a matter of not knowing the rules. Mistakes can happen, if indeed a mistake did occur. It's also not unusual for a chain crew to move when they shouldn't move and create an issue.
There are two different spots this penalty could be assessed from, depending on when the 12th player came on to the field. Where do you think the penalty should have been assessed from?
Also, I'm having difficulty finding this game. When was the 4AA Eastern Regional Final between Wake Forest and Middle Creek played?
Losing the the spot in such a case is not a matter of not knowing the rules. Mistakes can happen, if indeed a mistake did occur. It's also not unusual for a chain crew to move when they shouldn't move and create an issue.
There are two different spots this penalty could be assessed from, depending on when the 12th player came on to the field. Where do you think the penalty should have been assessed from?
Also, I'm having difficulty finding this game. When was the 4AA Eastern Regional Final between Wake Forest and Middle Creek played?
DIDDYDONTPLAY (Poster says)
The game was played December 2013 at Middle Creek and Middle Creek lost 24 to 23. It was a 1 point loss, I thought it was a 2 point loss but that doesn't matter. It was televised on TWC. WF rushed their punt team onto the field and punted 4 times that game catching MC in transition of players running on and off. Four separate penalties 3 for 15 yards and 1 for 24 yards were assessed that game on WF punts. The MC Coaches deserved the blame for not making corrections.....it was bizarre how fast the punt team ran on the field and the refs would spot the ball super fast, it was weird. Had the last penalty been 15 instead of 24 yards...MC would have won. I thought too many men was marked from the line of scrimmage and why is it 15 yards anyway...that seems excessive?
The game was played December 2013 at Middle Creek and Middle Creek lost 24 to 23. It was a 1 point loss, I thought it was a 2 point loss but that doesn't matter. It was televised on TWC. WF rushed their punt team onto the field and punted 4 times that game catching MC in transition of players running on and off. Four separate penalties 3 for 15 yards and 1 for 24 yards were assessed that game on WF punts. The MC Coaches deserved the blame for not making corrections.....it was bizarre how fast the punt team ran on the field and the refs would spot the ball super fast, it was weird. Had the last penalty been 15 instead of 24 yards...MC would have won. I thought too many men was marked from the line of scrimmage and why is it 15 yards anyway...that seems excessive?
FBREF (Poster says)
If there are 12 players on the field at the snap AND they participate, it's 15 yards from the previous spot. If the players are running off the field AND don't participate in the play, the penalty is illegal substitution for 5 yards from the previous spot.
Participating is 15 yards, not getting off the field before the ball is snapped is 5 yards.
If the 12th player were to run on the field after the snap, the foul would be penalized from the spot of the foul, not from the previous spot.
If there are 12 players on the field at the snap AND they participate, it's 15 yards from the previous spot. If the players are running off the field AND don't participate in the play, the penalty is illegal substitution for 5 yards from the previous spot.
Participating is 15 yards, not getting off the field before the ball is snapped is 5 yards.
If the 12th player were to run on the field after the snap, the foul would be penalized from the spot of the foul, not from the previous spot.
DIDDYDONTPLAY (Poster says)
WOW......Thank you for info!!! The players running off the field at the time of the snap were not participating. MC got royally screwed.
WOW......Thank you for info!!! The players running off the field at the time of the snap were not participating. MC got royally screwed.
FBREF (Poster says)
The NCHSAA has dropped the hammer. Last year was the worst I've ever seen with regard to fan, player and coach conduct. Evidently the Board of Directors and the folks in Chapel Hill agree with me.
This year, in all sports, we have a zero tolerance policy for unsporting behavior. For example:
• Inappropriate language/profanity
– Unsporting foul on the team bench – charged to the Head Coach
– If directed at an official – immediate ejection and a 2-game sanction
• Assistant coaches contesting calls
– Unsporting foul on the team bench
– Charged to the Head Coach
– 1 of 2 unsporting fouls charged to the Head Coach
– On 2nd offense, Head Coach is ejected
• Any coach/non-player coming onto the playing field to contest a call
– Automatic unsporting foul charged to coach/player
– 1 of 2 allowed for game disqualification
– Will also apply to baseball coaches who will not be allowed to come onto the field to argue a call
• Any player displaying verbal or physical dissent to an official
– Unsporting 15-yard penalty
– 1 of 2 allowed for game disqualification
• Any physical or verbal display in a negative/demonstrative manner by school administrator
– Stop game and warn
– 2nd offense – Game suspended until administrator leaves the area
We'll see how quickly people adjust.
The NCHSAA has dropped the hammer. Last year was the worst I've ever seen with regard to fan, player and coach conduct. Evidently the Board of Directors and the folks in Chapel Hill agree with me.
This year, in all sports, we have a zero tolerance policy for unsporting behavior. For example:
• Inappropriate language/profanity
– Unsporting foul on the team bench – charged to the Head Coach
– If directed at an official – immediate ejection and a 2-game sanction
• Assistant coaches contesting calls
– Unsporting foul on the team bench
– Charged to the Head Coach
– 1 of 2 unsporting fouls charged to the Head Coach
– On 2nd offense, Head Coach is ejected
• Any coach/non-player coming onto the playing field to contest a call
– Automatic unsporting foul charged to coach/player
– 1 of 2 allowed for game disqualification
– Will also apply to baseball coaches who will not be allowed to come onto the field to argue a call
• Any player displaying verbal or physical dissent to an official
– Unsporting 15-yard penalty
– 1 of 2 allowed for game disqualification
• Any physical or verbal display in a negative/demonstrative manner by school administrator
– Stop game and warn
– 2nd offense – Game suspended until administrator leaves the area
We'll see how quickly people adjust.
Sportsnut17 (Poster says)
Just had our association meeting today. Booking agent made sure to remind us of these requirements and that we enforce them. If we don't and it is reported to NCHSAA we can expect to sit those 2 games.
Just had our association meeting today. Booking agent made sure to remind us of these requirements and that we enforce them. If we don't and it is reported to NCHSAA we can expect to sit those 2 games.
WHSGRAD (Poster says)
My only problem with officials are the REALLY arrogant ones that think they are perfect. The really goods aren't afraid to say, "coach, I might have missed that one." That will almost always stop an argument with the coaches I know. I know some coaches would go ballistic, but then they are wrong because everyone know that no one is perfect. I just wish the officials would act like they know perfection is unattainable. Just admit you are wrong when you are and when the coach is wrong be willing to explain why!
My only problem with officials are the REALLY arrogant ones that think they are perfect. The really goods aren't afraid to say, "coach, I might have missed that one." That will almost always stop an argument with the coaches I know. I know some coaches would go ballistic, but then they are wrong because everyone know that no one is perfect. I just wish the officials would act like they know perfection is unattainable. Just admit you are wrong when you are and when the coach is wrong be willing to explain why!
FBREF (Poster says)
I don't know any official who thinks he/she is perfect.
And I know a lot of officials.
I don't know any official who thinks he/she is perfect.
And I know a lot of officials.
WTXYCOLOR (Poster says)
How or will the referee's signal differ from any other type of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, so you can tell that the head coach also is penalized? What other actions receive unsportsmanlike flags? Taunting, spiking the ball or excessive celebration? Pushing and shoving after the play would be a dead ball personal foul rather than unsportsmanlike?
How or will the referee's signal differ from any other type of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, so you can tell that the head coach also is penalized? What other actions receive unsportsmanlike flags? Taunting, spiking the ball or excessive celebration? Pushing and shoving after the play would be a dead ball personal foul rather than unsportsmanlike?
FBREF (Poster says)
How or will the referee's signal differ from any other type of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, so you can tell that the head coach also is penalized?
It won't. You'll know if a second foul occurs, as the referee will give the ejection signal and the head coach will leave the field.
What other actions receive unsportsmanlike flags? Taunting, spiking the ball or excessive celebration?
Nothing has changed with regard to acts that draw an unsporting flag. The rule is just being enforced more stringently when it comes to unsporting acts directed at officials, profanity, inappropriate language and sideline personnel. The sideline has one voice, the head coach. No longer are we to allow assistant coaches to yell or complain about calls or plays.
Pushing and shoving after the play would be a dead ball personal foul rather than unsportsmanlike?
That's correct. Unsportsmanlike fouls are non-contact fouls.
How or will the referee's signal differ from any other type of unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, so you can tell that the head coach also is penalized?
It won't. You'll know if a second foul occurs, as the referee will give the ejection signal and the head coach will leave the field.
What other actions receive unsportsmanlike flags? Taunting, spiking the ball or excessive celebration?
Nothing has changed with regard to acts that draw an unsporting flag. The rule is just being enforced more stringently when it comes to unsporting acts directed at officials, profanity, inappropriate language and sideline personnel. The sideline has one voice, the head coach. No longer are we to allow assistant coaches to yell or complain about calls or plays.
Pushing and shoving after the play would be a dead ball personal foul rather than unsportsmanlike?
That's correct. Unsportsmanlike fouls are non-contact fouls.
WHSGRAD (Poster says)
They may not think they are perfect, but a lot act that way.
A couple weeks ago a call was made on the field. My head coach was questioning it because it was obviously wrong. The official look at him and said "coach, I messed up, but I can't change it now." My head coach looked at him, patted him the back and said, "thanks for telling me." That was the end of the discussion. That was refreshing and would end a lot of arguments instead of trying to make stuff up to seem correct. In my 22 year experience on the sideline I have seen a lot of officials try to make explanations up when they could have just said, "I missed it coach."
Now, I also realize that there are some coaches that would go ballistic if an official said that would pounce on them the rest of the game, but that is when they are wrong and should be penalized.
A lot of arguments could be thwarted by people admitted they made a mistake and people accepting that explanation. On both sides!
They may not think they are perfect, but a lot act that way.
A couple weeks ago a call was made on the field. My head coach was questioning it because it was obviously wrong. The official look at him and said "coach, I messed up, but I can't change it now." My head coach looked at him, patted him the back and said, "thanks for telling me." That was the end of the discussion. That was refreshing and would end a lot of arguments instead of trying to make stuff up to seem correct. In my 22 year experience on the sideline I have seen a lot of officials try to make explanations up when they could have just said, "I missed it coach."
Now, I also realize that there are some coaches that would go ballistic if an official said that would pounce on them the rest of the game, but that is when they are wrong and should be penalized.
A lot of arguments could be thwarted by people admitted they made a mistake and people accepting that explanation. On both sides!
FREF (Poster says)
No one is going to admit a mistake unless they know they were wrong. Just because one person (coach) thinks/knows the call was wrong doesn't mean the other (official) thinks/knows it was wrong. That doesn't mean he thinks, or is acting, like he's perfect.
People tend to make too many assumptions about others.
No one is going to admit a mistake unless they know they were wrong. Just because one person (coach) thinks/knows the call was wrong doesn't mean the other (official) thinks/knows it was wrong. That doesn't mean he thinks, or is acting, like he's perfect.
People tend to make too many assumptions about others.
TARHEELG (Poster says)
So if, like I had thought, and like you said, Unsportsmanlike Conduct is a non-contact foul, It seems I saw an incorrect enforcement last Friday, when a player seemingly should have gotten a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct, as the explanation given to the sideline was that a tackler pushed the ball carrier's head into the ground after the play was over....the white hat gave signal for unsportsmanlike conduct, and sideline was given a detailed explanation, as if it were a matter of the 'one more and he's gone', not a routine quickly yelling the number of the guy that committed penalty and move on to the next play, but again, it seems that an action involving contact with another player should be a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct....with that in mind, how much leeway do officials have to eject a player for reasons other than going by the book on fighting, 2 unsportsmanlike conduct, etc?
Different question, but speaking of multiple offense and potential ejections: I saw a game last year where the same defensive lineman got 4-5 personal fouls for late hits in the backfield throughout the game (roughing the passer, hitting QB after pitching the ball, piling on a ball carrier already down well after the whistle), I know there is not a rule where a certain number of personal fouls equals automatic ejection, but would it be within the scope of the officials' authority to warn (and eventually eject or disqualify) a guy who continued to commit the same infractions with no regard to safety (cheapshots with blatant roughing the passer, kicker, holder, snapper, head to head hits, horse collar tackles, kick catch interference and plowing through punt returner before the ball arrived, etc.)?
So if, like I had thought, and like you said, Unsportsmanlike Conduct is a non-contact foul, It seems I saw an incorrect enforcement last Friday, when a player seemingly should have gotten a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct, as the explanation given to the sideline was that a tackler pushed the ball carrier's head into the ground after the play was over....the white hat gave signal for unsportsmanlike conduct, and sideline was given a detailed explanation, as if it were a matter of the 'one more and he's gone', not a routine quickly yelling the number of the guy that committed penalty and move on to the next play, but again, it seems that an action involving contact with another player should be a personal foul, not unsportsmanlike conduct....with that in mind, how much leeway do officials have to eject a player for reasons other than going by the book on fighting, 2 unsportsmanlike conduct, etc?
Different question, but speaking of multiple offense and potential ejections: I saw a game last year where the same defensive lineman got 4-5 personal fouls for late hits in the backfield throughout the game (roughing the passer, hitting QB after pitching the ball, piling on a ball carrier already down well after the whistle), I know there is not a rule where a certain number of personal fouls equals automatic ejection, but would it be within the scope of the officials' authority to warn (and eventually eject or disqualify) a guy who continued to commit the same infractions with no regard to safety (cheapshots with blatant roughing the passer, kicker, holder, snapper, head to head hits, horse collar tackles, kick catch interference and plowing through punt returner before the ball arrived, etc.)?
REF4E (Poster says)
In your first question, sometimes it's not completely clear as to whether you have a personal foul or a USC. A mis-timed hit after the play will usually be ruled a PF. But in your example, action well after the play as you described where a player pushes off an opponent to get up (and at the same time, attempt to intimidate him), I can see that possibly being ruled a USC.
In the Appalachian State vs. Old Dominion game last Saturday, an ASU player who was frustrated shoved an ODU player down after a play and drew a flag. I was surprised to see that the officials in that game ruled the ASU player's foul a USC rather than a PF. However, college rules may be different on this.
Officials have the authority to disqualify a player for any contact foul judged to be flagrant. In some cases such as repeated PF's, the officials may deem it appropriate after one or more personal fouls to advise the player and coach that the next one will get him an early exit.
In your first question, sometimes it's not completely clear as to whether you have a personal foul or a USC. A mis-timed hit after the play will usually be ruled a PF. But in your example, action well after the play as you described where a player pushes off an opponent to get up (and at the same time, attempt to intimidate him), I can see that possibly being ruled a USC.
In the Appalachian State vs. Old Dominion game last Saturday, an ASU player who was frustrated shoved an ODU player down after a play and drew a flag. I was surprised to see that the officials in that game ruled the ASU player's foul a USC rather than a PF. However, college rules may be different on this.
Officials have the authority to disqualify a player for any contact foul judged to be flagrant. In some cases such as repeated PF's, the officials may deem it appropriate after one or more personal fouls to advise the player and coach that the next one will get him an early exit.
TARHEELG (Poster says)
Thanks, I've also seen cases where an official will essentially escort a player off the field and tell the coach he needs to cool off, as if they're strongly recommending he take a few plays off when incurring one PR or USC penalty, kind of like that warning you referred to where one more similar action will get him gone
Thanks, I've also seen cases where an official will essentially escort a player off the field and tell the coach he needs to cool off, as if they're strongly recommending he take a few plays off when incurring one PR or USC penalty, kind of like that warning you referred to where one more similar action will get him gone
REF4E (Poster says)
New Mexico is having problems covering all their games because of a dwindling pool of officials...and it's a problem everywhere.
http://www.athleticbusiness.com/hig...-events-at-risk.html?eid=99426028&bid=1540036
New Mexico is having problems covering all their games because of a dwindling pool of officials...and it's a problem everywhere.
http://www.athleticbusiness.com/hig...-events-at-risk.html?eid=99426028&bid=1540036
SPORTSNUT17 (Poster says)
Based off the average age attending the state clinic, I believe in less than 10 years we will have a difficult time putting 5 on the field. ( and with everyone running spread and speed of game we need more on field than 5) Don't see many younger ones wanting to put time and effort in for such a small return financially.
Based off the average age attending the state clinic, I believe in less than 10 years we will have a difficult time putting 5 on the field. ( and with everyone running spread and speed of game we need more on field than 5) Don't see many younger ones wanting to put time and effort in for such a small return financially.
FBREF (Poster says)
t's just a matter of time before JV games have to be moved to Monday or Tuesday and varsity games are played on Thursday, Friday and Saturday due to the shortage of officials. It has already happened in some states.
t's just a matter of time before JV games have to be moved to Monday or Tuesday and varsity games are played on Thursday, Friday and Saturday due to the shortage of officials. It has already happened in some states.
HLinNC (Poster says)
Some of our middle schools and the JV's who share the same high school stadium play doubleheaders. They aren't intentionally scheduled that way but they work out pretty well for all involved.
Our private schools, who used to play on Saturday afternoon or evening, are now wanting the "Friday night" experience
and the home school teams have followed suit. We are maxed out on some heavy Fridays.
If some of our local youth league coaches and parents don't come to some sort of epiphany, they may be calling their games themselves (good luck with that). I for one am done with them. I've tried to pick up an occasional game over the past few years but the behavior of some parents is atrocious. The league officers have exhibited little to no effort to exercise control and there aren't enough off-duty cops hired to make me feel secure in these wild and wooly times. We'll lose it as a training ground but in reality some of the antics the rookies are exposed to are what is driving potential officials away. Maybe if they agreed to play in an empty stadium, but of course they would have no revenue then.
Some of our middle schools and the JV's who share the same high school stadium play doubleheaders. They aren't intentionally scheduled that way but they work out pretty well for all involved.
Our private schools, who used to play on Saturday afternoon or evening, are now wanting the "Friday night" experience
and the home school teams have followed suit. We are maxed out on some heavy Fridays.
If some of our local youth league coaches and parents don't come to some sort of epiphany, they may be calling their games themselves (good luck with that). I for one am done with them. I've tried to pick up an occasional game over the past few years but the behavior of some parents is atrocious. The league officers have exhibited little to no effort to exercise control and there aren't enough off-duty cops hired to make me feel secure in these wild and wooly times. We'll lose it as a training ground but in reality some of the antics the rookies are exposed to are what is driving potential officials away. Maybe if they agreed to play in an empty stadium, but of course they would have no revenue then.
WHOA MULE (Poster says)
A novel idea.....How about raising the pay to attract more quality candidates to tran as officials? The extra cost would pale in comparison to moving game dates around I would think. Its a tough job for tough men (and women) and they SHOULD be compensated for their work at 2016 levels. JMO.
A novel idea.....How about raising the pay to attract more quality candidates to tran as officials? The extra cost would pale in comparison to moving game dates around I would think. Its a tough job for tough men (and women) and they SHOULD be compensated for their work at 2016 levels. JMO.
FBREF (Poster says)
Better compensation is always a consideration. But in the end, they'll never be able to pay enough to compensate for the worsening abuse.
Better compensation is always a consideration. But in the end, they'll never be able to pay enough to compensate for the worsening abuse.
BOWLINGREF (Poster says)
The problem with officials asking for a pay raise is a lot areas the teachers have not had a raise in several years. Kinda difficult to pay officials more and not pay the teachers. Also in my opinion if a person is officiating high school sports for the money, they will starve.
The problem with officials asking for a pay raise is a lot areas the teachers have not had a raise in several years. Kinda difficult to pay officials more and not pay the teachers. Also in my opinion if a person is officiating high school sports for the money, they will starve.
FBREF (Poster says)
That's not true in NC. I can assure you that's not true as I am a state classified school employee who did not receive an increase while certified employees (teachers) did receive an increase.
That's not true in NC. I can assure you that's not true as I am a state classified school employee who did not receive an increase while certified employees (teachers) did receive an increase.
BOWLINGREF (Poster says)
Not sure when the teachers here in Campbell County Va. last got a raise.
Not sure when the teachers here in Campbell County Va. last got a raise.
HLinNC (Poster says)
Our raises at the scholastic level are few and far between. For every big game drawing lots of revenue, like Shelby v Crest or Kannapolis v Concord, there are many schools, particularly in rural areas, just scraping by. Its hard for the state to justify raises to them sometimes.
We still have the odd school trying to go cheap and use 4 man crews for JV's. Some varsity level games really need 6 or 7 man crews. There are a myriad of reasons and pay is just one of them. The key is convincing young HS and college graduates that this is worthwhile for them. Some aren't willing to put in the time, some aren't going to take the abuse-and I'm not talking about just the outrageous stuff-simple criticism puts off many. My son graduates this spring-I've encouraged him to get involved in intramurals wherever he goes to college. He has expressed an interest in coaching and he has even asked me about officiating. The college intramural program would give him exposure to both.
Another issue is high school booking agents are going to have to get off their duff and recruit. They have relied too long on us to do their recruiting for them. I will try to encourage someone I meet I think might be
able to give it a try but they are head of their group and should be leading the way in this.
Our local youth league has used the "just raise their game fee approach" several times over the past 10-15 years but until they get a grip on behavior, it isn't going to matter. The current fee is $150 for 3 games. I wouldn't work it for $200 now. Some guys will and until enough us say no, they will keep going the way they are headed.
Our raises at the scholastic level are few and far between. For every big game drawing lots of revenue, like Shelby v Crest or Kannapolis v Concord, there are many schools, particularly in rural areas, just scraping by. Its hard for the state to justify raises to them sometimes.
We still have the odd school trying to go cheap and use 4 man crews for JV's. Some varsity level games really need 6 or 7 man crews. There are a myriad of reasons and pay is just one of them. The key is convincing young HS and college graduates that this is worthwhile for them. Some aren't willing to put in the time, some aren't going to take the abuse-and I'm not talking about just the outrageous stuff-simple criticism puts off many. My son graduates this spring-I've encouraged him to get involved in intramurals wherever he goes to college. He has expressed an interest in coaching and he has even asked me about officiating. The college intramural program would give him exposure to both.
Another issue is high school booking agents are going to have to get off their duff and recruit. They have relied too long on us to do their recruiting for them. I will try to encourage someone I meet I think might be
able to give it a try but they are head of their group and should be leading the way in this.
Our local youth league has used the "just raise their game fee approach" several times over the past 10-15 years but until they get a grip on behavior, it isn't going to matter. The current fee is $150 for 3 games. I wouldn't work it for $200 now. Some guys will and until enough us say no, they will keep going the way they are headed.
I know ref will make mistakes it happen they are human but I drive me crazy to see something that happens and everyone knows the call was or wasn't made and the coaches on the sideline have tone point it out to the refs to get it right!
2 examples.......
Friday night team A was passing the ball empty back field, ball is snapped team B play breaks the LOS and is in the back field ASAP, QB throws the ball at the defenders feet to avoid a sack and flag comes out for roughing the passers! Then team B coach has to point out to the ref that there was no recever in the area and the ball didn't make it back to the LOS then and the call was corrected!
Then another game on a kick off receiving team play calls fair catch allows the ball to hit the ground and is blasted as he and a play from the other team is trying to get the ball and a flag is throw for personal foul for hitting him after he called a fair catch. Once again coaches have to get involved to get the call made right!
Noone begs for perfect robots to be refs just refs that know the rules!
2 examples.......
Friday night team A was passing the ball empty back field, ball is snapped team B play breaks the LOS and is in the back field ASAP, QB throws the ball at the defenders feet to avoid a sack and flag comes out for roughing the passers! Then team B coach has to point out to the ref that there was no recever in the area and the ball didn't make it back to the LOS then and the call was corrected!
Then another game on a kick off receiving team play calls fair catch allows the ball to hit the ground and is blasted as he and a play from the other team is trying to get the ball and a flag is throw for personal foul for hitting him after he called a fair catch. Once again coaches have to get involved to get the call made right!
Noone begs for perfect robots to be refs just refs that know the rules!
Interesting that you talk about knowing the rules.
Under HS rules, there is no rule that requires a pass to land beyond the LOS to avoid an intentional grounding call. That's a college and professional rule, not a high school rule.
I doubt very seriously the coaches corrected the officials with regard to either play. Usually, officials get together after the play, discuss the situation and make a change if necessary. It's not unusual for a flag to be thrown or picked up for intentional grounding AFTER the play is over and the officials get together to discuss the play. The referee is focused on one thing, the protection of the QB, not where the pass lands or if there were any receivers in the area. That's why there are 5 officials on the field. Also, just because a kick returner doesn't make a fair catch, a flag can still be thrown for a personal foul for illegal contact on him.
99% of coaches don't know the intricacies of the rules, just as I don't know the intricacies of a 5 technique. Coaching and officiating are two different avocations. I've been doing this for 29 years. The next time a coach corrects me about a rule will be the first time.
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The ball was set for play coach starts talking to the ref on the sideline frantically, side line ref blows play dead before the snap and the refs get together then the white hat walks over talks to coach A then B then gives 3 signals (one being roughing the passers one being grounding and one being offsetting) moves the ball back 15 yards aND they play on!
No question the coaches corrected the refs!
No question the coaches corrected the refs!
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